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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
Great to see the actual mention of evil Islamist extremism, hopefully media can follow suit. Good speech I thought. UK would be idiots to go to Corbyn now
This bothers me if it isn't done correctly.
The UK had already bought in rafts of hate speech and terror laws.. and they used by the authorities to harass people over rubbish bins and attack people like Tommy Robinson. These laws usually attack people for Islamophobia! Screw more of that. Any new laws have to be against religious extremists. ..and a list of religions covered attached. At this time just Islam. .. but if Jews, Christians conduct multiple attacks in the UK they can be added to. Islam can be taken off after 15 years of no attacks.
I fear any new laws will just make the UK closer to a police state. This is an Islamic extremist issue.... not a hate speech issue.That is the great worry alright. And although your idea might be more effective we will need to be in a position of daily deadly terrorist attacks for it even to be considered and even then there would be huge opposition to it. I think it is a step in the right direction for May and there is no other even slightly viable alternative in this election.
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@Tim said in Another attack in London:
An article from the Spectator published today:
How to tackle the terrorist threat: four steps we must now consider
James Forsyth
For the second time in this election, political campaigning is suspended because of a terrorist attack. Given the volume of terrorist attacks—three in the last three months and five other plots disrupted—you might think that the issue would have dominated the campaign. But it hasn’t. Until Theresa May’s statement today talking about how there has been too much tolerance for extremism, there has been remarkably little discussion about how this country should deal with this problem.
Now, you can say that we shouldn’t allow the terrorists to set the agenda. But I fear that the main reason for the absence of debate is that no one is quite sure what to do. However, it is imperative that we start talking seriously about the steps we can take. This problem isn’t going away and, as the Prime Minister acknowledged this morning, it is currently getting worse.
There are those talking about internment. I think this is a flawed idea, and one that won’t work. But there are things we need to do. Ideologically we need to accept that these terrorists believe that they find justifications for their action in their faith, and saying that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam is actually counter-productive. As the historian Tom Holland has pointed out, only once we appreciate this link and the fact there is schism within Islam can we start to really deal with this threat.
Then, we need to consider whether leaving the UK for certain states that have a particular terrorist problem, for example Libya, should require an exit visa. We don’t yet know whether the London Bridge attackers have links with any other countries. But we know that the Manchester attacker went to Libya multiple times and the New York Times is reporting that he used these visits to meet with Islamic State commanders. Exit visas would make it easier for the security services to keep an eye on these kind of trips and to arrest anyone who went to these places without permission and charge them with an imprisonable criminal offence.
We also need to consider whether we need Singapore-style rules to prevent public housing from becoming racial or religious ghettoes. In diverse towns and cities, is it really sensible to have estates that are made up almost exclusively of people from one ethnic or faith group? By this logic, I wonder if we should pause before allowing faith schools to be made up solely of pupils of that faith.
We need to be having a public debate about whether we need an Islamic version of the Maynooth Grant, the money the British state sent to the Maynooth seminary in Ireland in the 19th century to create a cadre of Roman Catholic priests who were more sympathetic to the British state. A modern-day Maynooth Grant would help foster a British version of Islam, one that is more easily compatible with our society. If we go down this road, it should be accompanied by a tightening of the rules on foreign funding of religious institutions in Britain and on preachers coming here from abroad.
The answers to the terrorist problem we face aren’t simple. This isn’t about foreign policy, it is about the hatred a small—but significant—number of Islamists have for the very basis of our society. Tackling it won’t be simple. But ignoring the problem isn’t going to solve it. So, as a matter of urgency, we need to start having a grown-up–and frank–debate about what we are going to do.
Hmmm.
There's a certain amount of irony in British commentators finding parallels and potential solutions to IsIs through its historical experiences in Ireland. The Maynooth Grant resulted in the largest growth in anti-Irish prejudice, commentary and behaviours when it was proposed in Britain. True, the British govt took over the grant to stem the flow of Irish seminarians going to France to become revolutionaries, but the British state providing support for the Catholic Church gave rise to massive outrage and protests from many Protestants, and Orange Order unionists in particular. How that outrage might find form in modern times ('appeasing the terrorists') is something to consider.
In addition, it may have quelled problems in England with its conflicts elsewhere, but it is also may have helped fan the flames of religious hatred and division in Ireland between north-east and south.
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Re: "There are no easy answers, etc." Of course. But Scott Adams has an interesting hot take. I like it. "Change the frame."
Helping The Terrorists Recruit
There is more terrorism in the news, this time in London. So how do the British politicians respond?
They do a recruitment ad for more terrorists.
They start by giving the terrorists cool labels, such as “Islamic extremists.” Do you know what sounds like an awesome club for an angry young Muslim to join? I’m thinking “Islamic Extremist” sound about right. That branding should be great for recruitment.
The media also helps terror recruitment with their wall-to-wall news about the terrorists’ successes. Every time they mention the body count, the bad guys cheer.
A better approach for the media, if they want to be helpful, might involve inviting a continuous line of Muslim scholars and critics to talk about how these “gullible losers” were duped by ISIS to kill themselves and spend eternity in Hell. And we need lots of visual and other persuasion about Hell. I want Photoshopped images of the terrorists burning for eternity. I want descriptions of the smells, tastes, and sounds they are experiencing, so the next “lone wolf” has something to contrast with the 72 virgin story. Let’s put some doubt into that mix. Fear is a good persuader.
I also wonder why the families of terrorists are not being flooded with condolence messages from Muslim clerics saying they are sorry about their kid burning in Hell for eternity. Be sincere about it. Include some digital representation of Hell in those cards and letters.
Change the frame.
—
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/161427038341/helping-the-terrorists-recruit
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo Sometimes I wish I could have that state of mind, it would certainly make me a happier individual. The way I feel is if we don't do something now what will the world look like in 5, 10, 15 years? In my mind since I see a real problem I owe it to the next generation to at least try and address it.
I think it will eventually run its course of destruction and then something heavier and more destructive will come along and IS will be a thing of history.
A massive virus or bug could decimate a large percentage of the population of this planet as well? I'm not overly concerned about that.
I am kind of the opinion that if we just all get on with our own lives and keep our sticky beaks out of oithers business you can live a happy and more fulfilling life.
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@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo Sometimes I wish I could have that state of mind, it would certainly make me a happier individual. The way I feel is if we don't do something now what will the world look like in 5, 10, 15 years? In my mind since I see a real problem I owe it to the next generation to at least try and address it.
I am kind of the opinion that if we just all get on with our own lives and keep our sticky beaks out of oithers business you can live a happy and more fulfilling life.
For sure, no doubt that's exactly what the kids going to the Ariana Grande concert were doing.
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I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary. -
@Frank said in Another attack in London:
Was the Fern down because we were on the verge of solving the ISIS problem?
Problem? What problem?
http://www.thesilverfern.com/topic/1684/forum-software-update/10
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@Hooroo I genuinely hope you're right, my worry is that you're not and a group passivity to this until it effects us personally may lead to action far too late.
Footage of radicalisation in islamic schools and mosques is pretty unnerving when you start to consider the numbers involved and the lack of action currently in place. I'm sure NZ won't feel the effects for a long time. Aussie will be sooner, one on right now in melbourne if early reports are to be believed.
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@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary.How were the IRA bomb far more scary??
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary.How were the IRA bomb far more scary??
Because they scared me more?
I seem to remember everyone being on edge from threats, certainly you tried to get in and out of tube and rail stations quickly. The threats were vocal more than actual until after I left London but what had been expected finally did come.
At the moment I am more wary of the hammer wielding scooter thugs that just target people from behind in packs. They are a scourge.
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@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary.How were the IRA bomb far more scary??
Because they scared me more?
I seem to remember everyone being on edge from threats, certainly you tried to get in and out of tube and rail stations quickly. The threats were vocal more than actual until after I left London but what had been expected finally did come.
At the moment I am more wary of the hammer wielding scooter thugs that just target people from behind in packs. They are a scourge.
The IRA called it's bombs, had far fewer serious attacks, fewer active members and killed less.
No way were they more scary.
And yes I lived in London during both times as well. Actual IRA and Islamic attacks on travel routes I used. The IRA attack onpy killed people because the bomber got his bomb clock wrong by 12 hours...
The Islamists got theirs exactly right.
As for soccer thugs.. what is their death toll against innocents so far this year. Must have missed there last murderous rampage against innocent children.And what exact chance did the little 8 year old girl in Manchester have against that bomb?
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Why announce you want to avoid discussing Islam and then say that the IRA scared you more? Seriously wtf does the IRA have to do with any of this? Seems to be some kind of weird deflection and argument that these guys really aren't that bad.
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FFS both of you. I was making a personal comment and observation about how I feel as someone living here. I was NOT trying to downplay anything or overstate something else. It is totally subjective and arguing against me does not and cannot change how I felt in the late 80s/early 90s or how I feel now.
and @Baron-Silas-Greenback, it's scooter thugs I mentioned, not soccer thugs. No they haven't killed anyway but they are randomly attacking people daily throughout the city.
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@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
FFS both of you. I was making a personal comment and observation about how I feel as someone living here. I was NOT trying to downplay anything or overstate something else. It is totally subjective and arguing against me does not and cannot change how I felt in the late 80s/early 90s or how I feel now.
and @Baron-Silas-Greenback, it's scooter thugs I mentioned, not soccer thugs. No they haven't killed anyway but they are randomly attacking people daily throughout the city.
Then why even mention the IRA or any other form of violence. How on earth is that relevant in this discussion other than being an attempt to downplay what just happened?
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@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
FFS both of you. I was making a personal comment and observation about how I feel as someone living here. I was NOT trying to downplay anything or overstate something else. It is totally subjective and arguing against me does not and cannot change how I felt in the late 80s/early 90s or how I feel now.
and @Baron-Silas-Greenback, it's scooter thugs I mentioned, not soccer thugs. No they haven't killed anyway but they are randomly attacking people daily throughout the city.
FFS right back at you. I was giving my opinion and questioning the validity and basis for yours.
You can have your opinion and others can question and say your opinion is wrong.
My opinion is that saying IRA bombs were more scary is laughable.
And scooter thugs? Get back to me when the death toll on innocents reaches the thousands. Until then it is a diversion tactic.
Another attack in London