The Left ... Need Some Thoughts ...
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Worth a watch on the subject of persuasion and from a difference of opinion potentially more extreme than your sisters views on Anika tattoo complaints.... a black jazz musician whose hobby is making friends with KKK members.
Full doco is on Netflix "Accidental Courtesy"
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jegga said:
Btw if you ever stray into the gender pay gap debate with her simply ask why unemployment amongst men isn’t absolutely massive if you can employ a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man and pay her 25% less . Every business would lay off all their male staff and save a fortune in wages .
The gender pay gap doesn't mean that women get magically payed 25% less. It means that women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important, meaning that on average they get payed less.
I would advise that you actually try to evaluate your opponent's position rather than going for the interpretation that makes you feel smart.
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Admiral Bradley said:
jegga said:
Btw if you ever stray into the gender pay gap debate with her simply ask why unemployment amongst men isn’t absolutely massive if you can employ a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man and pay her 25% less . Every business would lay off all their male staff and save a fortune in wages .
The gender pay gap doesn't mean that women get magically payed 25% less. It means that women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important, meaning that on average they get payed less.
I would advise that you actually try to evaluate your opponent's position rather than going for the interpretation that makes you feel smart.
Welcome aboard Admiral.
With regard to your post above are you able to:
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Substantiate that "women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important"
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Suggest why "women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important"?
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Admiral Bradley said:
jegga said:
Btw if you ever stray into the gender pay gap debate with her simply ask why unemployment amongst men isn’t absolutely massive if you can employ a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man and pay her 25% less . Every business would lay off all their male staff and save a fortune in wages .
The gender pay gap doesn't mean that women get magically payed 25% less. It means that women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important, meaning that on average they get payed less.
I would advise that you actually try to evaluate your opponent's position rather than going for the interpretation that makes you feel smart.
How do you know I haven’t evaluated my “opponents “ position? Bit of a assumption on your part , I guess it makes you feel smart.
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This post is deleted!
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booboo said:
Admiral Bradley said:
jegga said:
Btw if you ever stray into the gender pay gap debate with her simply ask why unemployment amongst men isn’t absolutely massive if you can employ a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man and pay her 25% less . Every business would lay off all their male staff and save a fortune in wages .
The gender pay gap doesn't mean that women get magically payed 25% less. It means that women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important, meaning that on average they get payed less.
I would advise that you actually try to evaluate your opponent's position rather than going for the interpretation that makes you feel smart.
Welcome aboard Admiral.
With regard to your post above are you able to:
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Substantiate that "women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important"
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Suggest why "women have less access to job opportunities, get promoted less often, and in general work at jobs that aren't seen as important"?
It's not my argument, and I'm not in NZ (although neither are you), but I still find it hard that people can't make the assertion that some of the reason for the pay gap is due to straight up sexist attitudes.
Three examples from here in Japan that I've discussed before - surprisingly its the third that fucks me off the most - many of my best female students just don't get offered good roles - despite wanting them and despite being better qualified (on university performance at least):
- Regarding opportunities, see Tokyo Medical school:
- Regarding Promotion, see, well, pretty much everywhere. We are living this right now as my wife will not be eligible for consideration of promotion for a number of years, because baby:
"When I asked the boss to send me to a professional programme as a step towards a future promotion, her reaction was: 'You took maternity leave and worked shorter hours. How many more favours do you want'?"
"I have been told the same thing by three bosses over the past five years," she said.
The 42-year-old mother-of-three took advantage of a Japanese law that allows parents to work shorter hours, taking a commensurate paycut to do so.
She only worked one hour less a day, but nonetheless found the decision was "a trigger that ruined the plan I had for my career".
She feared that if she complained about what she considered discrimination, she might be penalised by her superiors or transferred to a remote clinic.
- Regarding working at jobs that aren't seen as important, see the employment system here:
Two paths are open to new hires at many big Japanese firms: the career and non-career tracks -- sogo-shoku and ippan-shoku in Japanese. They're often referred to as the "management" and "mommy" tracks.
That's because women typically end up in the non-career roles, which involve administrative jobs with hardly any upward mobility that ambitious people find very frustrating.
The goods news (from CNN source above):
Women account for 9.1% of all senior managers at automaker Nissan (NSANF). That's above the 8.3% average for Japanese firms with more than 100 employees, according to Catalyst, a non-profit group that promotes women in the workplace.
Chie Kobayashi, 48, who leads Nissan's diversity development office, says the company was attractive to her straight out of university because it bucks the trend by not using separate career tracks. In 2005, she became the first Japanese working mother to be posted overseas for Nissan.
Other major Japanese companies, including Calbee and Shiseido (SSDOF), have also been singled out for their progressive policies on women employees. But experts point out that such firms typically have foreigners in senior management, often crediting Nissan's Brazilian-born CEO, Carlos Ghosn, with helping to improve the automaker's approach.
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As far as I know, Booboo isn't in NZ and didn't specify that evidence had to be from there.
My point is only that there seems to be an aversion here on the board to even considering that part of the wage gap may be due to structural sexism within society and workplace culture.
I'm pretty happy to accept that - I think even Jordan Peterson accepts it too, btw - and after seeing the news about [how law firms in NZ and the way young female lawyers are treated, which matches very well with my (much deeper) understanding about how they work here in japan, I'm comfortable considering that there may be some aspects that operate cross-culturally, without also feeling that all men are the enemy.
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@gt12 for what it's worth, I absolutely accept that sexism plays a role. How bigger role is difficult to judge as there are so many factors at play, but I would not discount it just like I don't discount other very obvious factors that have been discussed on here before.
I just really despise the way so many people, including many mainstream media outlets, push the idea that discrimination is the main factor. It's pretty obvious in NZ that it is not - particularly when we are talking about the reasons for male dominated industries. I also hate politicians like those in government right now justifying awful policies while sighting discrimination without even considering the multitude of other factors at play. They use it to push their really shitty anti-capitalist agenda.
We seem to be in an age where the majority of people just cannot get their heads around a bit of bloody nuance.
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I agree with all of that, which is one reason why I look forward to sharing a beer with you one day. I feel like we are very close in our actual positions, even though we often argue for different sides.
However, lately there seems to be a 'what wage gap?' thing creeping in, which I think is also a little dangerous. As I'm here, I see it very clearly, and although I agree that NZ is much more developed than Japan, it may still be developing. I don't see why that isn't our starting point, at which case all discussions become only about how much and what actions are (or are not needed, perhaps none) - not whether or not.
To return to the topic, I've had trouble in the last week with my friends posting about Serena - I know if it being discussed in the US politics thread, but I wonder whether it is more appropriate here, because I just can't seem to get it through to some friends, that the situation there is a rich person using their power to bully a person who is just doing their job - which sadly involves enforcing compliance with external rules upon the richer, more powerful person, which then lays the person open to such bullying from the richer person.
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@no-quarter I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here say the opportunities for women in Asia, the Middle East and Africa are limited and life for a lot of women in those countries is actually pretty awful.
The debate has been centred in the West , I don’t think you can compare the West to other cultures in that regard.I’d never deny some people are sexist or racist and can use their predudices to screw other people over .
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@gt12 not to toot our own horns but what brings us together is a willingness to engage and see things from different POVs, and importantly a willingness to accept evidence and change our views based on that. I honestly think those simple things are becoming more and more rare unfortunately.
The Serena thing is really silly. There are bigger fish to fry than standing up for the top 1% of the top 1%. Stating she is the bully is a hard sell to many on the left as it's a white male vs a black female. If you check the Tennis thread there's a great article from Mark Reason (I know WTF) calling out the blatant misandry that is really poisoning the debate around women's rights in the west.
I think what frustrates me most is when people look at inequality and immediately jump to 1) it being a bad thing (it often isn't) and 2) it being down to nothing but discrimination while ignoring everything else. It makes it basically impossible to even define what problems need solving let alone trying to fix them.
James Damore is a great example of that - he's a very logical thinker as many Devs are. He looked at the evidence, tried to understand the many reasons for a lack of women in Tech, and then made suggestions around how we could make the workplace a more attractive place for women. And he got fucking fired for it. That just really highlighted how toxic the debate has become, particularly in the States.
@jegga was that meant to be aimed at me? I agree with what you are saying anyway, we focus our debates on the West. Women's rights in third world countries are so far behind it's not even funny.
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@no-quarter no it was aimed at gt12 , what happens to women in Japan sounds pretty shitty but comparing it to the West is apples and oranges .
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There is a lack of precision to all of these issues.
Sweeping statements, generalisations, emotive pleas and perceptions.You can't solve these, or any, problems without the actual truthful, real data of what the current situation is.
Everybody has been lied to too much in life to blindly accept someone's perception
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I didn't compare them, you did. I just attempted to answer the question using evidence from my local situation to illustrate some points.
But, if we must have sources from 'western' contexts (btw, some would include Japan as an OECD country), I'll use a few studies from the 'West' (EU, USA, Canada, Aus, and NZ) to discuss some ongoing issues.
Firstly, there is a lack of good data. Many of the current claims are built on very small experimental studies or huge correlational studies - and teasing out the underlying factors relies on interpretation, so one may see it as choice while others may see it as discrimination (e.g., hours of unpaid work in the house).
Nevertheless, using doctors again, there remains an unobserved difference (i.e., after accounting for other factors using multivariate analysis) of about $19,000 between female and male doctors. Furthermore, as I've pointed out before using a great study of jockeys, women are (slightly, but significantly) undervalued.
For mothers, I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that mothers are discriminated against beyond their actual abilities, experiences, etc. An older (e.g. 2007) experimental study demonstrated a 'Mommy' penalty and 'daddy' benefit, and that study is now being replicated in other contexts (e.g., Switzerland last year).
Interestingly, the motherhood penalty appears to be lower in the USA compared to other countries- but is this good news? The U.S. labor market consistently tends to most strongly reward continuous labor market attachment - which emphasizes taking off less time, and may lead less women to choose to get married and have babies - major causes of population problems in countries such as Japan.
Anyway, I know there are other factors, such as women turning down opportunities after having kids, which is a "penalty" that many mothers choose for various reasons, but it also seems clear that companies treat men and women differently. Women can erase the penalty by presenting themselves as a the breadwinner, but if where males present themselves as the caregivers, they continue to receive leadership training after specifying themselves as the caregiver, even though women don't.
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The situation for mothers is interesting, and there's no easy answer either. The structure of society when it comes to the roles of men and women is radically different these days to what it was even 50 years ago.
I think there are massive benefits to having children as early as possible. That way when women do start getting positions of responsibility in their 30s, time off to care for young children is not such an issue.
I don't think that's a great solution though, more a workaround to how thing work at the moment. Ideally, and I was rightfully called out on this in the NZ Pol thread with regards to Jacinda, a woman should not be punished for having children. There is a lot of variation to how companies deal with this - I imagine it would be very hard for a small business to cater for a staff member taking a full year off, whereas some of the larger corporations have really good policies in place to ensure the woman returns to the same role and even paying out lost earnings while on leave should they return and stay.
This is probably a point where I am on board with some of the lefts policies - more financial support for mothers, particularly young mothers - to ensure they are able to have a family with as little impact financially and career wise as possible.
I saw a story on the news recently, TBH I don't remember all the details, but basically a woman that was studying lost her student allowance after having a child which was just so wrong.
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My team is all female, and there have been 6 babies born over the last 4 years. That's meant at any one time we've always had at least one fixed term contractor providing parental leave cover. Often that has worked well as we've gotten people in for full-time cover. Whereas my permanent staff have returned to part-time hours initially, and often for a number of years. Basically having your entire team in flux over an extended period has been pretty challenging.
Then there's the balancing of that against people wanting to advance their careers... but you need time in the saddle to get that exp and develop further skills. That only gets more drawn out when you are talking about having multiple kids or needing to return to mahi .6 or less. Can be really tough when people are only in a couple of days a week too.
Note only one of those babies is mine!! and not to a team member - to my boss aka the wife!!
Note #2 I'm sure all of the above would be just as challenging if I had a team of dad's that were actively taking leave too. I took nearly 3 months and that required a lot of work to not leave things in the lurch.
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I recently met a female doctor who took a few years off from practicing to look after her kids. She's now back part time. So when compared to an equally qualified male doctor there will of course be a significant "gender pay gap". These kinds of decisions have to be taken into consideration when analysing this "problem". Unfortunately, the attitude is more often a case of "men earn more money on average, therefore we need to change this". That starting point is of course complete horseshit.
With regard to Japan, I don't think a single person here would deny that Japan is different to the other countries we would regard as the "West" in terms of culture and the treatment of women.
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@gt12
Great post thanks for taking the time.So far we have no evidence to the claim (that all of us have heard ad nausium) of widespread disparity of pay based on being a female in the west. 75cents to the dollar is an often used headline.
Or have I got that wrong?
Motherhood creates issues and we need more work here, there's never been a denial of that challenge.