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@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Well Abbott wants to make it so that you can't use the Internet anonymously. Bit of an overreaction and a considerable leap down the path of 1984. Once they know who you are, they can visit and advise your opinions aren't correct.
Particularly if you're scathing of elected officials or imbecilic public servants.
You can say what you like, you just have to be prepared to reap the consequences of what you say. I’ve long thought twitter would be somewhat better platform if everybody required a blue tick.
I don’t see how this close to 1984. No hinderance on free speech.
Edit - aware of the hypocrisy there ... posting as major rage on a forum! However, like I’m sure almost all others, this is done to protect identity from colleagues and clients. More than prepared to share identity with anybody who asks over PM
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@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Well Abbott wants to make it so that you can't use the Internet anonymously. Bit of an overreaction and a considerable leap down the path of 1984. Once they know who you are, they can visit and advise your opinions aren't correct.
Particularly if you're scathing of elected officials or imbecilic public servants.
Not the first thing thing Abbott will be forced to walk back in his public life, nor the last I'm guessing.
@Rembrandt said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Erdogan is the antithesis of Ataturk.
Major ISP in Australia has now also jumped on the same censorship bandwagon.
...nothing like giant corporations being the arbiters of societal morality. Independent news site and what appears to be some sort of farming blog (joke) as being the two I'm aware of.
At least in Australia there are some media who might actually make a stand against giving away freedoms so willingly.
"Giving away freedoms"?
The chan sites often devolve into cesspits of child porn, right wing extremism with associated left wing backlash, and the subsequent civil wars this triggers. I don't think that content is in any way acceptable. I also don't think hosting 17 minutes of real-life Nazi fanboi shooter action is acceptable either.
Does anyone?
Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to moderate, so the pin getting pulled is the easiest option until those responsible for the sites can demonstrably pull their shit back together and put in place measures aimed at preventing it.
They won't be able to prevent all of it, of course. The internet is a hydra and the cost of moderation would be ridiculous. Nobody has said these blocks are permanent.
Maybe that's a bit simplistic from me. I was on the road when Apple pulled the Tumblr app from its app list due to the long association with child porn distribution, so I probably missed the no-doubt enthusiastic discussion about what a blow that was for freedom.
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@barbarian said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
The virtue signalling is getting on my tits.
Hit a new low this morning from somebody who, frankly speaking, I expected much better of. Based in Melbourne, went to some Mosque over the weekend to "support the community" and has taken a photo with her partner, both of them cuddling up pulling one of their "funny selfie" pictures.
Basically tourism.
I agree with you about the signalling, but one fact that might be relevant - in Melbourne on the weekend it was some sort of Mosque 'open day', where non-Islamic people were encouraged to visit, take photos etc.
So it might not have been as insensitive as it seemed.
Interesting. I'm not sure if this changing things for me or not though. Still virtue signalling, still tourism.
I don't think it was insensitive. Just missing the (very obvious, serious and critical) point.
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@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
You can say what you like, you just have to be prepared to reap the consequences of what you say. I’ve long thought twitter would be somewhat better platform if everybody required a blue tick.
And look at some of the hoops you have to jump through to get something moderated on Twitter. It can be a fine line between what is free speech and what is hate speech, and you can't cover every example.
I actually read the appropriate passages of the 18C and 18D here, and there is a lot of subjectivity to it because it is Law, not Rule.
And then you've got layers of local v international differences and Ts & Cs for the site you're on. Fucking minefield.
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@No-Quarter said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@SammyC thanks for sharing, I know it's not easy but the only way to address racism like that is to call it out.
I don't think laws against racist attitudes will stop people being racist. It will only drive them underground to forums like 8chan where they will sit in an echo chamber with building resentment towards society. I want a light shone on these ideas - it'd be great to see debates with far right racists to really showcase how bad their ideas are. I'd love to see someone like Jordan Peterson dissect Richard Spencer (well known neo-Nazi) in a debate the same way he has in some of his viral videos picking apart idiotic far left ideas.
We shouldn't fear these people's ideas. They're wrong on just about everything. De-platforming them only builds their case and feeds into their conspiracy theories and resentment.
Slightly off topic, but on the issue of racism, bigotry and violence
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@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
You can say what you like, you just have to be prepared to reap the consequences of what you say. I’ve long thought twitter would be somewhat better platform if everybody required a blue tick.
There's a lot of arseholes saying some repugnant things with blue ticks on Twitter.
I don’t see how this close to 1984. No hinderance on free speech.
I thought I covered that when I said Once they know who you are, they can visit and advise your opinions aren't correct.
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@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@MajorRage said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
You can say what you like, you just have to be prepared to reap the consequences of what you say. I’ve long thought twitter would be somewhat better platform if everybody required a blue tick.
There's a lot of arseholes saying some repugnant things with blue ticks on Twitter.
Never denied that. Thats free speech tho right. If you are prepared to say something aresholic, put it in the public domain and accredited to you, fill your boots.
I don’t see how this close to 1984. No hinderance on free speech.
I thought I covered that when I said Once they know who you are, they can visit and advise your opinions aren't correct.
Who is they?
Why should speech on the internet be different to that in real life?
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People obviously want to talk abut blocked sites etc, but it’s a bit of a tangent
That conversation is over here now:
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/2999/censorship-and-the-mosque-shooting -
So I've seen some right leaning publications stating that the Al-Noor Mosque has ties to extremism, so I did a bit of digging to see if there was any validity to their claims.
Summary: no, not really.
Basically, the claim comes from the fact that two brothers - Daryl and Nathan Jones converted to Islam at this Mosque. Daryl ended up being radicalized and joined Al-Qaeda and was killed in a drone strike. Nathan didn't, and denounced extremism in all forms. It is likely Daryl was radicalized online.
Some more history of the Mosque:
- historically speaking, the Muslim community has been dominated by South Asians that practice a moderate form of Sunni Islam.
- in more recent times, due largely to resettling refugees, there has been an increase in Somali and Arab Muslims - these Muslims are much more conservative.
- the Somali and Arab Muslims place a greater importance on the Mosque in their daily lives and as such have taken control of MAC, who run it. This is largely due to social reasons - they are generally in a lower socio-economic group than the South Asians and do not speak great English, so have found it more difficult to integrate. The Mosque is somewhere they can go and feel like they belong.
- in 2003 controversy broke out within the Muslim community. Basically, to assist the community financially, a major Arab charity called Al-Haramain offered financial assistance.
- this charity is pro-Wahabi with suspected ties to Al-Qaeda. Despite the fact this would have provided substantial financial assistance, the Muslim community rejected this as they did not want any ties to potential extremists. They also did not want to change the Mosque to only ultra-conservative teachings.
- there is also some underlying tensions between the South Asians and the Somali and Arab Muslims as they practice different teachings of Islam.
That's what I came up with in terms of ties to extremist groups. Just wanted to put this out there to provide a bit of nuance as you only ever get one side in our biased media organisations.
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@No-Quarter Thanks NQ. Good to have some info prior to getting all the bias.
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@No-Quarter said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
So I've seen some right leaning publications stating that the Al-Noor Mosque has ties to extremism, so I did a bit of digging to see if there was any validity to their claims.
Summary: no, not really.
Basically, the claim comes from the fact that two brothers - Daryl and Nathan Jones converted to Islam at this Mosque. Daryl ended up being radicalized and joined Al-Qaeda and was killed in a drone strike. Nathan didn't, and denounced extremism in all forms. It is likely Daryl was radicalized online.
Some more history of the Mosque:
- historically speaking, the Muslim community has been dominated by South Asians that practice a moderate form of Sunni Islam.
- in more recent times, due largely to resettling refugees, there has been an increase in Somali and Arab Muslims - these Muslims are much more conservative.
- the Somali and Arab Muslims place a greater importance on the Mosque in their daily lives and as such have taken control of MAC, who run it. This is largely due to social reasons - they are generally in a lower socio-economic group than the South Asians and do not speak great English, so have found it more difficult to integrate. The Mosque is somewhere they can go and feel like they belong.
- in 2003 controversy broke out within the Muslim community. Basically, to assist the community financially, a major Arab charity called Al-Haramain offered financial assistance.
- this charity is pro-Wahabi with suspected ties to Al-Qaeda. Despite the fact this would have provided substantial financial assistance, the Muslim community rejected this as they did not want any ties to potential extremists. They also did not want to change the Mosque to only ultra-conservative teachings.
- there is also some underlying tensions between the South Asians and the Somali and Arab Muslims as they practice different teachings of Islam.
That's what I came up with in terms of ties to extremist groups. Just wanted to put this out there to provide a bit of nuance as you only ever get one side in our biased media organisations.
That's outstanding mate. I wish to hell we had a media who could do this. The scrubbing off of the internet of the article referred to does nothing but inflame tensions and further feelings of victimisation and conspiracy. Can you share your sources? I'm still hanging out for a decent NZ news outlet. We need a kiwi Tim Pool.
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@Rembrandt did you mean to quote @No-Quarter there? 😉
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@NTA said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Rembrandt did you mean to quote @No-Quarter there? 😉
Certainly did mate! Multiple windows and half finished thoughts.
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@Rembrandt said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@canefan said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home.
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
This is the critical point. In almost all cases these lone wolves, muslim white or otherwise, are farking losers. They latch onto some cause out on the fringes to make themselves feel important for once and this is their chance for 10 minutes of 'fame'.
**That's exactly right. These are folk on the fringes without sustainable meaning in their lives.
Think of the kids in your class growing up, the ones on the bottom rung, socially weird and constantly bullied.** I understand his father had cancer and committed suicide, it doesn't excuse anything but it can create a fertile ground for this to grow.
It's so infuriating that Jordan Peterson is often so slandered by mainstream outlets as its his message which has been having success in de-radicalising people like this terrorist. His 12 rules book is the exact antidote to this guys manifesto.
I was not surprised to read that he had a stint as a personal trainer - it's an occupation that attracts these types (although most don't then go on to shoot up mosques).
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@gt12 said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
This is a good point, as many of this guys actions look like attempts to assimilate, which clearly didn’t work.
He was once a fat useless sportsperson who apparently fully committed to personal training. When that didn’t work, he no doubt tried other things, trying to find a place to fit in.
I won’t be surprised if he endured significant bullying (the father’s suicide and associated trauma doesn’t surprise me) and I’d wager he had some event where he was passed over or in some other perceived a slight against his person that he could point towards brown, specially Muslim, people.
I think that Baron is right; I don’t think he’s representative of any significant sub-population in NZ or Oz. Nevertheless, it’s very useful to find out how and where he got these ideas. For all I know, there is a dangerous group of people radicalizing people. If so, I want them identified in the same way that I’d want people identified who were trying to radicalize muslims.
It's the opposite side of the same coin as the Islamists and rabid socialists. It's born of a deep dissatisfaction with one's own lot in life, which is then blamed on the "other" (whether it be Muslim immigrants or "The West" or "the 1%" etc.).
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This shit gets on my tits.
I think that any reasonable person overseas would read this AP article here, and deduce that there is a major problem in Christchurch, from the three examples given in this article.
But they'd be wrong (Or at least misleaded), because I'm pretty sure that each example (see italicized below) is from the same lame excuse for a person - and it's either deliberate misreporting (see bold text) or uselessness:
“They’ve been quieter recently but they haven’t gone away. They are still here,” he said, citing a 2016 incident in which pigs’ heads were left at the Al Noor mosque, where 42 people died in Friday’s massacre.
A business owner in Christchurch has also attracted media attention since the massacre because his company’s vans were emblazoned with neo-Nazi references including the “black sun” symbol that Tarrant’s guns were covered with. The same images, which are used as the company’s branding, appear on its website.
When AP visited the registered business address, located in one of Christchurch’s poorer neighborhoods, three of its vans were parked opposite, their “black sun” imagery removed but still identifiable by a company website address on them. A visibly hostile man standing beside the vans, who did not appear to be the business owner, did not want to answer questions.
Police on Tuesday said they had arrested a 44-year-old man in Christchurch for distributing objectionable material and he would appear in court the next day.
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Random thoughts...
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Am not a fan of the concept of not naming or speaking the name of the perpetrator. I kind of understand the sentiment but I disagree. Naming him allows us to identify the enemy, and know who isn't evil.
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Interesting how often the picture of the blonde cop with the assault rifle has shown up. Am pretty sure it was on about 80% media outlets Friday evening, and has shown up multiple times since. Not sure if this is the woke media showing how empowered modern women are, or the misogynistic media perving.
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Amazed at how slow the ABC were at reporting anything on Friday. Plugged in to News Radio, who were obviously taking the News 24 TV feed, for the majority of Friday afternoon, occasionally checking Herald and Stuff. Things were getting reported on NZ sites hours before the ABC even speculated. Quite disappointing performance by a national broadcaster.
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Just watching Mike Bush on tele. 5mins 39secs from first call to arrival at site. Suspect arrested with 21 mins. Top work NZ Police.
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Christchurch Gunman in Mosque