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People obviously want to talk abut blocked sites etc, but it’s a bit of a tangent
That conversation is over here now:
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/2999/censorship-and-the-mosque-shooting -
So I've seen some right leaning publications stating that the Al-Noor Mosque has ties to extremism, so I did a bit of digging to see if there was any validity to their claims.
Summary: no, not really.
Basically, the claim comes from the fact that two brothers - Daryl and Nathan Jones converted to Islam at this Mosque. Daryl ended up being radicalized and joined Al-Qaeda and was killed in a drone strike. Nathan didn't, and denounced extremism in all forms. It is likely Daryl was radicalized online.
Some more history of the Mosque:
- historically speaking, the Muslim community has been dominated by South Asians that practice a moderate form of Sunni Islam.
- in more recent times, due largely to resettling refugees, there has been an increase in Somali and Arab Muslims - these Muslims are much more conservative.
- the Somali and Arab Muslims place a greater importance on the Mosque in their daily lives and as such have taken control of MAC, who run it. This is largely due to social reasons - they are generally in a lower socio-economic group than the South Asians and do not speak great English, so have found it more difficult to integrate. The Mosque is somewhere they can go and feel like they belong.
- in 2003 controversy broke out within the Muslim community. Basically, to assist the community financially, a major Arab charity called Al-Haramain offered financial assistance.
- this charity is pro-Wahabi with suspected ties to Al-Qaeda. Despite the fact this would have provided substantial financial assistance, the Muslim community rejected this as they did not want any ties to potential extremists. They also did not want to change the Mosque to only ultra-conservative teachings.
- there is also some underlying tensions between the South Asians and the Somali and Arab Muslims as they practice different teachings of Islam.
That's what I came up with in terms of ties to extremist groups. Just wanted to put this out there to provide a bit of nuance as you only ever get one side in our biased media organisations.
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@No-Quarter Thanks NQ. Good to have some info prior to getting all the bias.
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@No-Quarter said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
So I've seen some right leaning publications stating that the Al-Noor Mosque has ties to extremism, so I did a bit of digging to see if there was any validity to their claims.
Summary: no, not really.
Basically, the claim comes from the fact that two brothers - Daryl and Nathan Jones converted to Islam at this Mosque. Daryl ended up being radicalized and joined Al-Qaeda and was killed in a drone strike. Nathan didn't, and denounced extremism in all forms. It is likely Daryl was radicalized online.
Some more history of the Mosque:
- historically speaking, the Muslim community has been dominated by South Asians that practice a moderate form of Sunni Islam.
- in more recent times, due largely to resettling refugees, there has been an increase in Somali and Arab Muslims - these Muslims are much more conservative.
- the Somali and Arab Muslims place a greater importance on the Mosque in their daily lives and as such have taken control of MAC, who run it. This is largely due to social reasons - they are generally in a lower socio-economic group than the South Asians and do not speak great English, so have found it more difficult to integrate. The Mosque is somewhere they can go and feel like they belong.
- in 2003 controversy broke out within the Muslim community. Basically, to assist the community financially, a major Arab charity called Al-Haramain offered financial assistance.
- this charity is pro-Wahabi with suspected ties to Al-Qaeda. Despite the fact this would have provided substantial financial assistance, the Muslim community rejected this as they did not want any ties to potential extremists. They also did not want to change the Mosque to only ultra-conservative teachings.
- there is also some underlying tensions between the South Asians and the Somali and Arab Muslims as they practice different teachings of Islam.
That's what I came up with in terms of ties to extremist groups. Just wanted to put this out there to provide a bit of nuance as you only ever get one side in our biased media organisations.
That's outstanding mate. I wish to hell we had a media who could do this. The scrubbing off of the internet of the article referred to does nothing but inflame tensions and further feelings of victimisation and conspiracy. Can you share your sources? I'm still hanging out for a decent NZ news outlet. We need a kiwi Tim Pool.
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@Rembrandt did you mean to quote @No-Quarter there? 😉
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@NTA said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Rembrandt did you mean to quote @No-Quarter there? 😉
Certainly did mate! Multiple windows and half finished thoughts.
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@Rembrandt said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@canefan said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@antipodean said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Virgil said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
But I still feel this has more to do with his home country Australia then it does with us. Whatever drove him to act out and harbour the hate he has came about from his real home.
He was a fat kid who was shit at sports. Unsurprisingly he didn't have any friends.
This is the critical point. In almost all cases these lone wolves, muslim white or otherwise, are farking losers. They latch onto some cause out on the fringes to make themselves feel important for once and this is their chance for 10 minutes of 'fame'.
**That's exactly right. These are folk on the fringes without sustainable meaning in their lives.
Think of the kids in your class growing up, the ones on the bottom rung, socially weird and constantly bullied.** I understand his father had cancer and committed suicide, it doesn't excuse anything but it can create a fertile ground for this to grow.
It's so infuriating that Jordan Peterson is often so slandered by mainstream outlets as its his message which has been having success in de-radicalising people like this terrorist. His 12 rules book is the exact antidote to this guys manifesto.
I was not surprised to read that he had a stint as a personal trainer - it's an occupation that attracts these types (although most don't then go on to shoot up mosques).
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@gt12 said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
This is a good point, as many of this guys actions look like attempts to assimilate, which clearly didn’t work.
He was once a fat useless sportsperson who apparently fully committed to personal training. When that didn’t work, he no doubt tried other things, trying to find a place to fit in.
I won’t be surprised if he endured significant bullying (the father’s suicide and associated trauma doesn’t surprise me) and I’d wager he had some event where he was passed over or in some other perceived a slight against his person that he could point towards brown, specially Muslim, people.
I think that Baron is right; I don’t think he’s representative of any significant sub-population in NZ or Oz. Nevertheless, it’s very useful to find out how and where he got these ideas. For all I know, there is a dangerous group of people radicalizing people. If so, I want them identified in the same way that I’d want people identified who were trying to radicalize muslims.
It's the opposite side of the same coin as the Islamists and rabid socialists. It's born of a deep dissatisfaction with one's own lot in life, which is then blamed on the "other" (whether it be Muslim immigrants or "The West" or "the 1%" etc.).
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This shit gets on my tits.
I think that any reasonable person overseas would read this AP article here, and deduce that there is a major problem in Christchurch, from the three examples given in this article.
But they'd be wrong (Or at least misleaded), because I'm pretty sure that each example (see italicized below) is from the same lame excuse for a person - and it's either deliberate misreporting (see bold text) or uselessness:
“They’ve been quieter recently but they haven’t gone away. They are still here,” he said, citing a 2016 incident in which pigs’ heads were left at the Al Noor mosque, where 42 people died in Friday’s massacre.
A business owner in Christchurch has also attracted media attention since the massacre because his company’s vans were emblazoned with neo-Nazi references including the “black sun” symbol that Tarrant’s guns were covered with. The same images, which are used as the company’s branding, appear on its website.
When AP visited the registered business address, located in one of Christchurch’s poorer neighborhoods, three of its vans were parked opposite, their “black sun” imagery removed but still identifiable by a company website address on them. A visibly hostile man standing beside the vans, who did not appear to be the business owner, did not want to answer questions.
Police on Tuesday said they had arrested a 44-year-old man in Christchurch for distributing objectionable material and he would appear in court the next day.
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Random thoughts...
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Am not a fan of the concept of not naming or speaking the name of the perpetrator. I kind of understand the sentiment but I disagree. Naming him allows us to identify the enemy, and know who isn't evil.
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Interesting how often the picture of the blonde cop with the assault rifle has shown up. Am pretty sure it was on about 80% media outlets Friday evening, and has shown up multiple times since. Not sure if this is the woke media showing how empowered modern women are, or the misogynistic media perving.
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Amazed at how slow the ABC were at reporting anything on Friday. Plugged in to News Radio, who were obviously taking the News 24 TV feed, for the majority of Friday afternoon, occasionally checking Herald and Stuff. Things were getting reported on NZ sites hours before the ABC even speculated. Quite disappointing performance by a national broadcaster.
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Just watching Mike Bush on tele. 5mins 39secs from first call to arrival at site. Suspect arrested with 21 mins. Top work NZ Police.
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@booboo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Random thoughts...
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Am not a fan of the concept of not naming or speaking the name of the perpetrator. I kind of understand the sentiment but I disagree. Naming him allows us to identify the enemy, and know who isn't evil.
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Interesting how often the picture of the blonde cop with the assault rifle has shown up. Am pretty sure it was on about 80% media outlets Friday evening, and has shown up multiple times since. **Not sure if this is the woke media showing how empowered modern women are, or the misogynistic media perving.
**
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Amazed at how slow the ABC were at reporting anything on Friday. Plugged in to News Radio, who were obviously taking the News 24 TV feed, for the majority of Friday afternoon, occasionally checking Herald and Stuff. Things were getting reported on NZ sites hours before the ABC even speculated. Quite disappointing performance by a national broadcaster.
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Just watching Mike Bush on tele. 5mins 39secs from first call to arrival at site. Suspect arrested with 21 mins. Top work NZ Police.
Well I'm sure each side is suitably offended no matter what the view....
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@canefan said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
That guy really does deserve to rot in Hell, then die
Bloody hell. Still can't process seeing a three year old on that list having been hunted down by the killer.
The PM does have it right in being determined not to mention the killer's name. Whatever it takes to avoid giving him anything that he craves.
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I kind of get the articles and photos about the victims but I can’t help feel at times it’s click bait. I think victims names and a short blurb would get way fewer clicks than photos of the victims. Are the photos really needed??
Totally agree with not naming the guy. Bread & water, no internet, no tv, no newspapers, copy of the Koran and the Bible and greatest accordeon hits piped in from dawn to dusk, interspersed with excerpts from classic choral masterpieces.
In an ideal world he would be dropped at a rate of 1 cm a minute into a vat of boiling oil but the world is not ideal.
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Ms Ardern also defended her call not to refer to the suspect by name.
"One of his goals... was that he sought notoriety and we will absolutely deny him that," she said.I worry that she didn't read what he wrote. As tempting as it might be to write him off as an insane person I would think there is at least some value for people in authority in trying to understand why he did this. I don't know why she'd lie about that. Every chance of course that she has been misquoted too.
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@Rembrandt said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Ms Ardern also defended her call not to refer to the suspect by name.
"One of his goals... was that he sought notoriety and we will absolutely deny him that," she said.I worry that she didn't read what he wrote. As tempting as it might be to write him off as an insane person I would think there is at least some value for people in authority in trying to understand why he did this. I don't know why she'd lie about that. Every chance of course that she has been misquoted too.
Why does not mentioning him by name in public mean that the authorities won't pick apart his every move?
Christchurch Gunman in Mosque