Racism in NZ
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@Rembrandt said in Racism in NZ:
@No-Quarter That's awesome, you're a lucky man!
I dunno. Not sure I’d be happy with a wife that is so obviously right.
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@Catogrande said in Racism in NZ:
@Rembrandt said in Racism in NZ:
@No-Quarter That's awesome, you're a lucky man!
I dunno. Not sure I’d be happy with a wife that is so obviously right.
I think he got his handle from his missus!!
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@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
A couple of days ago a white privilege hashtag was trending on twitter, where a bunch of white people talked about how they have privilege and what they get away with because of it. So my wife put out the call on her Facebook for people to talk about their white privilege (yeah she likes to debate people...).
Anyway she had a Canadian guy that has worked as a teacher in northern and predominantly native population schools talk about the racism his kids experienced, being called savages etc. and that he has white privilege as it doesn't happen to him.
I got her permission to post her response as she does a good job of articulating the problems with the idea of white privilege and why we need to stop going on about it all the time:
I think it is absolutely abhorrent for people to direct that type of language to anyone let alone children. I don’t dispute that your students have dealt with racism, and unfortunately, they probably will for the rest of their lives, I say this because I am in their shoes. No amount of legislation or multiculturalism will ever get rid of hateful ideas like racism, there will always be hateful people for whatever reason. I think the work you have done with indigenous kids and children in general is commendable, teachers play one of the most important roles in shaping society. I really admire people like you because I was raised by teachers, and some of the best role models I have had in my life have been my teachers (all of whom were white). The way I see racism and how I would explain it especially to young people of colour is that when I was their age, I wish someone would have told me that my worth does not come from the colour of my skin. I have come to learn that as a human being, I don’t derive any value from skin colour, just like I don’t place any value on my eye colour or my hair colour as they are just immutable human characteristics that I have no control over whatsoever. It comes from the things that I have worked for; like being a good mother, a person of good character and a good lawyer. This is what Martin Luther King Jr meant when he said that a person should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. I am a Torres Strait Islander which makes me an indigenous Australian. My biggest concern is for kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds not just in Australia but from all over the world. I worry about their mindset and the impact ideas such as white privilege has on their mental health. I say that particularly because indigenous kids in Australia (and in fact NZ) suffer from high rates of depression, anxiety and suicide, granted there are various reasons for that but this is an important one. The focus on race and skin colour has very bad consequences for their mental health and this was the case for me growing up in NZ. A lot of kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds face poverty and domestic violence and when you throw in the idea that society is rigged against us, how can you expect us to have a positive outlook on life? Take for example a young indigenous girl in Australia, and she is one of many who has taken her life, in her last Facebook post she talked about how racist the world was. It makes my blood boil that kids are being told that they have no hope before they even have the chance to properly experience the world. The whole concept of white privilege promotes the idea that indigenous and minority kids have no chance, when we know that privilege exists in many different forms and that not all white people are privileged. Privilege does not solely come from skin colour, we need to stop giving our children that message. I would also add that I think the idea of white privilege is reprehensible and it is not because some white people are not privileged, people from various backgrounds have privileges. But the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the innocence or guilt of the individuals of that group; there is nothing more racist than that.
You should get her on the Fern. Problem is, every post would be a mike drop moment and end the thread.
The thing I find really disturbing with identity politics is this enhancement of the victim complex. As your better half eludes to, believing you're a victim with the system rigged against you isn't going to give you much motivation to succeed in life and, most damaging of all, gives you plenty of excuses for failing and not even trying at all. While I'm also happy to give those less off a helping hand, the victim narrative may also create a sense of entitlement. The fact is that only a very fortunate few actually get handed everything in life. The vast majority still have to work in some way for what they have. The trick is making opportunities available to everyone. Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist and shouldn't be stamped out at every opportunity, but it shouldn't be built up to an extent that dreams are killed even before they get a chance to be realised.
One thing I would add is how level headed and sensible this thread has been. A few years ago I recounted an incident when my Norwegian wife and then 4 year old son were racially abused by an aboriginal woman. They were just standing there waiting for me to pick them up. A certain poster here retorted that they pretty much had it coming and that we had no right to be upset. Iirc there were plenty of upvotes as well. I'd like to think those posters views have evolved since then. The idea that I should tell a 4 year old that he should accept racial abuse because someone with his skin colour did some nasty shit decades ago is beyond absurd and flies in the face of everything MLK preached about.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Racism in NZ:
@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
A couple of days ago a white privilege hashtag was trending on twitter, where a bunch of white people talked about how they have privilege and what they get away with because of it. So my wife put out the call on her Facebook for people to talk about their white privilege (yeah she likes to debate people...).
Anyway she had a Canadian guy that has worked as a teacher in northern and predominantly native population schools talk about the racism his kids experienced, being called savages etc. and that he has white privilege as it doesn't happen to him.
I got her permission to post her response as she does a good job of articulating the problems with the idea of white privilege and why we need to stop going on about it all the time:
I think it is absolutely abhorrent for people to direct that type of language to anyone let alone children. I don’t dispute that your students have dealt with racism, and unfortunately, they probably will for the rest of their lives, I say this because I am in their shoes. No amount of legislation or multiculturalism will ever get rid of hateful ideas like racism, there will always be hateful people for whatever reason. I think the work you have done with indigenous kids and children in general is commendable, teachers play one of the most important roles in shaping society. I really admire people like you because I was raised by teachers, and some of the best role models I have had in my life have been my teachers (all of whom were white). The way I see racism and how I would explain it especially to young people of colour is that when I was their age, I wish someone would have told me that my worth does not come from the colour of my skin. I have come to learn that as a human being, I don’t derive any value from skin colour, just like I don’t place any value on my eye colour or my hair colour as they are just immutable human characteristics that I have no control over whatsoever. It comes from the things that I have worked for; like being a good mother, a person of good character and a good lawyer. This is what Martin Luther King Jr meant when he said that a person should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. I am a Torres Strait Islander which makes me an indigenous Australian. My biggest concern is for kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds not just in Australia but from all over the world. I worry about their mindset and the impact ideas such as white privilege has on their mental health. I say that particularly because indigenous kids in Australia (and in fact NZ) suffer from high rates of depression, anxiety and suicide, granted there are various reasons for that but this is an important one. The focus on race and skin colour has very bad consequences for their mental health and this was the case for me growing up in NZ. A lot of kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds face poverty and domestic violence and when you throw in the idea that society is rigged against us, how can you expect us to have a positive outlook on life? Take for example a young indigenous girl in Australia, and she is one of many who has taken her life, in her last Facebook post she talked about how racist the world was. It makes my blood boil that kids are being told that they have no hope before they even have the chance to properly experience the world. The whole concept of white privilege promotes the idea that indigenous and minority kids have no chance, when we know that privilege exists in many different forms and that not all white people are privileged. Privilege does not solely come from skin colour, we need to stop giving our children that message. I would also add that I think the idea of white privilege is reprehensible and it is not because some white people are not privileged, people from various backgrounds have privileges. But the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the innocence or guilt of the individuals of that group; there is nothing more racist than that.
You should get her on the Fern. Problem is, every post would be a mike drop moment and end the thread.
The thing I find really disturbing with identity politics is this enhancement of the victim complex. As your better half eludes to, believing you're a victim with the system rigged against you isn't going to give you much motivation to succeed in life and, most damaging of all, gives you plenty of excuses for failing and not even trying at all. While I'm also happy to give those less off a helping hand, the victim narrative may also create a sense of entitlement. The fact is that only a very fortunate few actually get handed everything in life. The vast majority still have to work in some way for what they have. The trick is making opportunities available to everyone. Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist and shouldn't be stamped out at every opportunity, but it shouldn't be built up to an extent that dreams are killed even before they get a chance to be realised.
One thing I would add is how level headed and sensible this thread has been. A few years ago I recounted an incident when my Norwegian wife and then 4 year old son were racially abused by an aboriginal woman. They were just standing there waiting for me to pick them up. A certain poster here retorted that they pretty much had it coming and that we had no right to be upset. Iirc there were plenty of upvotes as well. I'd like to think those posters views have evolved since then. The idea that I should tell a 4 year old that he should accept racial abuse because someone with his skin colour did some nasty shit decades ago is beyond absurd and flies in the face of everything MLK preached about.
Really? I assume he's fucked off now?
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@Catogrande said in Racism in NZ:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Racism in NZ:
@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
A couple of days ago a white privilege hashtag was trending on twitter, where a bunch of white people talked about how they have privilege and what they get away with because of it. So my wife put out the call on her Facebook for people to talk about their white privilege (yeah she likes to debate people...).
Anyway she had a Canadian guy that has worked as a teacher in northern and predominantly native population schools talk about the racism his kids experienced, being called savages etc. and that he has white privilege as it doesn't happen to him.
I got her permission to post her response as she does a good job of articulating the problems with the idea of white privilege and why we need to stop going on about it all the time:
I think it is absolutely abhorrent for people to direct that type of language to anyone let alone children. I don’t dispute that your students have dealt with racism, and unfortunately, they probably will for the rest of their lives, I say this because I am in their shoes. No amount of legislation or multiculturalism will ever get rid of hateful ideas like racism, there will always be hateful people for whatever reason. I think the work you have done with indigenous kids and children in general is commendable, teachers play one of the most important roles in shaping society. I really admire people like you because I was raised by teachers, and some of the best role models I have had in my life have been my teachers (all of whom were white). The way I see racism and how I would explain it especially to young people of colour is that when I was their age, I wish someone would have told me that my worth does not come from the colour of my skin. I have come to learn that as a human being, I don’t derive any value from skin colour, just like I don’t place any value on my eye colour or my hair colour as they are just immutable human characteristics that I have no control over whatsoever. It comes from the things that I have worked for; like being a good mother, a person of good character and a good lawyer. This is what Martin Luther King Jr meant when he said that a person should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. I am a Torres Strait Islander which makes me an indigenous Australian. My biggest concern is for kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds not just in Australia but from all over the world. I worry about their mindset and the impact ideas such as white privilege has on their mental health. I say that particularly because indigenous kids in Australia (and in fact NZ) suffer from high rates of depression, anxiety and suicide, granted there are various reasons for that but this is an important one. The focus on race and skin colour has very bad consequences for their mental health and this was the case for me growing up in NZ. A lot of kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds face poverty and domestic violence and when you throw in the idea that society is rigged against us, how can you expect us to have a positive outlook on life? Take for example a young indigenous girl in Australia, and she is one of many who has taken her life, in her last Facebook post she talked about how racist the world was. It makes my blood boil that kids are being told that they have no hope before they even have the chance to properly experience the world. The whole concept of white privilege promotes the idea that indigenous and minority kids have no chance, when we know that privilege exists in many different forms and that not all white people are privileged. Privilege does not solely come from skin colour, we need to stop giving our children that message. I would also add that I think the idea of white privilege is reprehensible and it is not because some white people are not privileged, people from various backgrounds have privileges. But the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the innocence or guilt of the individuals of that group; there is nothing more racist than that.
You should get her on the Fern. Problem is, every post would be a mike drop moment and end the thread.
The thing I find really disturbing with identity politics is this enhancement of the victim complex. As your better half eludes to, believing you're a victim with the system rigged against you isn't going to give you much motivation to succeed in life and, most damaging of all, gives you plenty of excuses for failing and not even trying at all. While I'm also happy to give those less off a helping hand, the victim narrative may also create a sense of entitlement. The fact is that only a very fortunate few actually get handed everything in life. The vast majority still have to work in some way for what they have. The trick is making opportunities available to everyone. Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist and shouldn't be stamped out at every opportunity, but it shouldn't be built up to an extent that dreams are killed even before they get a chance to be realised.
One thing I would add is how level headed and sensible this thread has been. A few years ago I recounted an incident when my Norwegian wife and then 4 year old son were racially abused by an aboriginal woman. They were just standing there waiting for me to pick them up. A certain poster here retorted that they pretty much had it coming and that we had no right to be upset. Iirc there were plenty of upvotes as well. I'd like to think those posters views have evolved since then. The idea that I should tell a 4 year old that he should accept racial abuse because someone with his skin colour did some nasty shit decades ago is beyond absurd and flies in the face of everything MLK preached about.
Really? I assume he's fucked off now?
Nope. Still here every day. Tried to retrieve the post but it must be too far back in time.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Probably best left there then.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel I remember debating you on Indigenous Australian's and what is holding them back quite a few years ago. I was far more sympathetic to the lefts ideas back then, but have grown to realise how toxic they have become. From memory we ended the debate amicably and agreed we hoped our grandchildren wouldn't need to even discuss race, which was a nice thought.
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@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
@Rancid-Schnitzel I remember debating you on Indigenous Australian's and what is holding them back quite a few years ago. I was far more sympathetic to the lefts ideas back then, but have grown to realise how toxic they have become. From memory we ended the debate amicably and agreed we hoped our grandchildren wouldn't need to even discuss race, which was a nice thought.
You were an angry young millenial back then
No doubt I was my typically diplomatic self! Unfortunately the way things are progressing, race will be a bigger issue for our grandchildren than it even was for our generation. I hope I'm very wrong on that. -
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Racism in NZ:
@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
A couple of days ago a white privilege hashtag was trending on twitter, where a bunch of white people talked about how they have privilege and what they get away with because of it. So my wife put out the call on her Facebook for people to talk about their white privilege (yeah she likes to debate people...).
Anyway she had a Canadian guy that has worked as a teacher in northern and predominantly native population schools talk about the racism his kids experienced, being called savages etc. and that he has white privilege as it doesn't happen to him.
I got her permission to post her response as she does a good job of articulating the problems with the idea of white privilege and why we need to stop going on about it all the time:
I think it is absolutely abhorrent for people to direct that type of language to anyone let alone children. I don’t dispute that your students have dealt with racism, and unfortunately, they probably will for the rest of their lives, I say this because I am in their shoes. No amount of legislation or multiculturalism will ever get rid of hateful ideas like racism, there will always be hateful people for whatever reason. I think the work you have done with indigenous kids and children in general is commendable, teachers play one of the most important roles in shaping society. I really admire people like you because I was raised by teachers, and some of the best role models I have had in my life have been my teachers (all of whom were white). The way I see racism and how I would explain it especially to young people of colour is that when I was their age, I wish someone would have told me that my worth does not come from the colour of my skin. I have come to learn that as a human being, I don’t derive any value from skin colour, just like I don’t place any value on my eye colour or my hair colour as they are just immutable human characteristics that I have no control over whatsoever. It comes from the things that I have worked for; like being a good mother, a person of good character and a good lawyer. This is what Martin Luther King Jr meant when he said that a person should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. I am a Torres Strait Islander which makes me an indigenous Australian. My biggest concern is for kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds not just in Australia but from all over the world. I worry about their mindset and the impact ideas such as white privilege has on their mental health. I say that particularly because indigenous kids in Australia (and in fact NZ) suffer from high rates of depression, anxiety and suicide, granted there are various reasons for that but this is an important one. The focus on race and skin colour has very bad consequences for their mental health and this was the case for me growing up in NZ. A lot of kids from indigenous and minority backgrounds face poverty and domestic violence and when you throw in the idea that society is rigged against us, how can you expect us to have a positive outlook on life? Take for example a young indigenous girl in Australia, and she is one of many who has taken her life, in her last Facebook post she talked about how racist the world was. It makes my blood boil that kids are being told that they have no hope before they even have the chance to properly experience the world. The whole concept of white privilege promotes the idea that indigenous and minority kids have no chance, when we know that privilege exists in many different forms and that not all white people are privileged. Privilege does not solely come from skin colour, we need to stop giving our children that message. I would also add that I think the idea of white privilege is reprehensible and it is not because some white people are not privileged, people from various backgrounds have privileges. But the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the innocence or guilt of the individuals of that group; there is nothing more racist than that.
You should get her on the Fern. Problem is, every post would be a mike drop moment and end the thread.
The thing I find really disturbing with identity politics is this enhancement of the victim complex. As your better half eludes to, believing you're a victim with the system rigged against you isn't going to give you much motivation to succeed in life and, most damaging of all, gives you plenty of excuses for failing and not even trying at all. While I'm also happy to give those less off a helping hand, the victim narrative may also create a sense of entitlement. The fact is that only a very fortunate few actually get handed everything in life. The vast majority still have to work in some way for what they have. The trick is making opportunities available to everyone. Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist and shouldn't be stamped out at every opportunity, but it shouldn't be built up to an extent that dreams are killed even before they get a chance to be realised.
One thing I would add is how level headed and sensible this thread has been. A few years ago I recounted an incident when my Norwegian wife and then 4 year old son were racially abused by an aboriginal woman. They were just standing there waiting for me to pick them up. A certain poster here retorted that they pretty much had it coming and that we had no right to be upset. Iirc there were plenty of upvotes as well. I'd like to think those posters views have evolved since then. The idea that I should tell a 4 year old that he should accept racial abuse because someone with his skin colour did some nasty shit decades ago is beyond absurd and flies in the face of everything MLK preached about.
If you are referring to me (which I think you are) I’d love you to find that post and put it up because I certainly didn’t suggest that your wife had it coming. It was more along the lines of racism being about years of oppression and lost opportunities rather than being yelled at whilst walking through a park (although I probably used harsher language than that ).
I’ve posted on a couple of other threads about the struggles my wife faces in NZ with a brown face and foreign surname (Mexicans generally don’t take their husbands name when marrying). She’s an extremely qualified (masters degree) permanent resident, married to a kiwi and here to stay, I’ve lost track of how many jobs she’s applied for only to miss out to less qualified individuals. In the end we were lucky enough that a family member gave her an opportunity and she was able to move out of hospitality into an office environment.
I think it’s getting worse too, I’m sick of everyone trying to bait her about trump and the wall when they find out she’s Mexican. Or the other day some dickhead trying to be funny asked her if she’d rather that Mexico had been conquered by the English instead of the Spanish (her answer was she’d prefer nobody invaded anyone)
Politics are drifting further apart on the left and the right and hard working, tax paying immigrants are copping a lot of shit.
she’s copped regular abuse on public transport and a couple of months ago was abused and followed into a shopping mall by a couple of young blokes after getting off the bus. I suppose that’s similar to your wife’s experience, so maybe my views have evolved
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@SammyC do you think it's gotten worse since Trump was elected? With all the hyperbole around Mexican immigrants etc, even though what is happening over there has nothing to do with NZ people do seem far more invested in American politics these days. I don't remember people really giving a shit before, even when Obama was first elected. That last election seemed to bring out the worst on both sides all over the western world.
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@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
@SammyC do you think it's gotten worse since Trump was elected? With all the hyperbole around Mexican immigrants etc, even though what is happening over there has nothing to do with NZ people do seem far more invested in American politics these days. I don't remember people really giving a shit before, even when Obama was first elected. That last election seemed to bring out the worst on both sides all over the western world.
Most definitely, people perhaps think they are only teasing her when it’s a lot more personal for a girl that grew up 100m from the border fence and who would walk across the border to buy milk etc from an early age.
I’m not anti trump (I think the clintons are terrible people, am ambivalent re Obama), but a lot of stupid people all over the world seem to have seized on certain policies of his as an excuse to make others scapegoats for their own failings.
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@No-Quarter said in Racism in NZ:
That last election seemed to bring out the worst on both sides all over the western world.
That’s what mass hysteria looks like.
I found it pretty amusing the past couple years that leftist radicals (read: mainstream American news orgs that are routinely re-published by the Herald and Stuff) want us to believe that Drumpf is the new Adolf, and at the same time without blinking insist that it’s perfectly normal that visible minorities from the third world would want to trek a dangerous thousand-or-so miles through jungles and deserts to climb a fence for the chance to live in Drumpf’s Nazi Amerikka.
I’ve lived in a number of developed nations in the world, and while there are racial tensions in NZ, it doesn’t seem to me particularly bad by any stretch of the imagination, but of course I am speaking from a toxic position of white male privilege, so I should remain silent.
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Do we (the world, basically) need to delineate between institutional or legislated racism vs interpersonal racism (ignorance) when assessing racism in a given country or area?
The former we've pretty much knocked on the head, (except for quotas), but the latter will lurk in the minds of the less educated for generations.
Logically, you wouldn't give a fuck what a dickhead yelled at you - but logic and emotions don't mix and I don't want to downplay the unjust feelings you get when you're being unfairly judged. I got a taste in Thailand with a " fuck, all foreigners are dumb, don't know anything " when dickhead assumed I couldn't understand. Only a small one I know, but I stewed over it for weeks, years now, obviously.
If only it was easy to brush off as " dickhead, not my problem" when racially abused but it's not.
However I think it's a start as futile as that can seem
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This is just a brilliant summation of how fucked up the left is with racism... this video is actually pretty funny.
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but wasn't sure where to post this. I found this article really interesting - makes me think about race in a different way. Would be interested to read his book.