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@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Folau Factor:
It's a very difficult one. On the one hand I have zero sympathy for Ishmael. I hate fanatical God bothering twats like him almost as much as I hate SJWs. Unless he's a total idiot he also must have realised that AR had no choice but to sack him. And as mentioned previously, only the most deluded, arrogant tosser would publically proclaim that most of the people who pay his ridiculous salary are going to hell.
But on the other hand, this whole woke, corporate censorship crap has to be called out and stopped. It's particularly the case when these corporations will happily abandon those apparently vital principals when it helps their bottom line (think multiple tech companies in China and the Middle East, Nike's sweatshops, Qantas with Emirates and Brunei, or AR re-signing an unrepentent homophobe). They're as hypocritical, repugnant and greedy as the clergy back in the day. If this case results in them not being able to police what their employees may say or think during their spare time then bring it on.
That is an excellent summary.
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@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Plenty of gay christians for starters. Or at least gays that were brought up as christians and struggle to reconcile the two.
For those that don’t believe in sky fairies they are just being told that they are unworthy of being themselves in a desired society.
Pretty easy to look from the outside and say “sticks and stones” but I can imagine that it would not make you feel included in society.Hold on @Crucial , unless I’ve missed something IF never said any such thing as the bolded bit. I don’t doubt that is your well meant interpretation but I have to ask how does anybody become responsible for anything other than the words they actually said? Isn’t your extrapolation of his words your responsibility alone? Isn’t that the very definition of a straw man?
Look I’m an atheist, but I can see nothing good from people like you and me telling religious people what their beliefs should be. I’m with @Bones here I think, if you aren’t a Christian then the concept of Hell isn’t much of a threat . And although I’m not gay I pretty much fit the bill in every other category of people IF warned - note I say warned, not condemned, because I guarantee he would say condemning is God’s job, not his - and I find it hard to give even a fraction of a shit. I simply don’t care what he has to say about me, and the time when people like him held power over people like me is way in the distant past.
Frankly in a way I’m glad he’s proven himself to be a bit of a tool, because it gives me a chance to believe I’m superior to the good looking rugby genius with the hot wife in at least one way.
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@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
I note that not one poster has attempted to take up the challenge to explain how they would be reacting if the topic was racism instead of homophobia and why it would be different.
As I challenged before, replace gay with black and repeat your position.
Isn't this about freedom of religious expression.
Therefore, it has a level of protection under freedom of speech.Condemnation of homosexuality (however wrongly) has long been a tenet of religions. Not sure hating on black people is a religious tenet.
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
Where does it say that in the Bible?
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@Siam said in The Folau Factor:
@barbarian I don't think this was ever a rugby issue mate. The moment ARU allowed some tweets but not others this was never about rugby but more about virtue signalling to a fan base of rugby people who didn't really care what he'd tweeted.
You appear to apportion no responsibility to the ARU, I notice, just all blame to a sovereign individual exercising his legal right to appeal.
Presumably the ARU have all their ducks in a row and they'll demonstrate good governance and be fine, in the face of this appeal. If not, will you still blame Israel for bankrupting AR?
Get woke go broke
Qantas CEO is gay, Qantas is the Wallabies primary sponsor, this was a tweet they couldn't ignore. The last thing they wanted to do was fire him. Don't think he left them any choice, keep Folau and lose Qantas?
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@JC said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
Where does it say that in the Bible?
Doesn't, never said it did, not the point.
There is a well trodden line in many above arguments (including yours) that saying people are going to hell is not really an insult or denigrating. Crucial's argument, which I agree with, is if that's the case, then it should be ok to say the same to any section of society, without fear of consequence?
Literally, telling somebody to get fucked is not really an insult either (unless you are unmarried ... and religous ... !)
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@JC said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
Where does it say that in the Bible?
Doesn't, never said it did, not the point.
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Bones said in The Folau Factor:
@Crucial the only thing I find really hard to understand is how Tholou was denigrating. Hell isn't actually a real place. If you believe it is, you're probably 99% likely to have the same line of thinking as Furlao anyway.
Although there is truth in the above, would you be happy to stand on a street corner and tell all black people their going to hell because they are black? Which is Crucial's point?
While I get your point, @JC has responded in a much more articulate manner than I ever could.
To answer the question, no I wouldn't. But if I did, I'm unsure what religion I'd be espousing and I can't imagine any black people would feel unworthy if society due to the rantings of some funny sounding guy with a rat's tail.
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@JC said in The Folau Factor:
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
No, it's not. Folau is having a pop at a section of society based on his beliefs of a book. Nobody is arguing that. People are arguing as to whether or not saying people are going to hell is even an insult. I'm not buying that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
I think everybody has a right to think what they want and nobody is obliged to do anything to step in to line so to speak. It's why many people like me are torn in this argument. The fact is that it IS A corporate game now. That same corporate game which has made Folau a global superstar & multi millionaire.
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
It's about pointing at a section of society, nothing more. Crucials point of using black people I think (in my view anyway) is to show this. I'm also fairly sure that the bible belt were quoting parts of the bible during the slave years to justify their actions.
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@MajorRage this corporate game cuts both ways. Rugby was attracted to Folau after being an origin and Oz player in league and then trying his hand at AFL. They no doubt saw marketing potential and an attractive commercial commodity.
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Wouldn't it be wonderful and Christian if
Folau won
Gave back all the money raised from crowdfunding
Paid his legal fees
Kept the money due to be paid under his playing contract
Donated the remainder to AR -
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@JC said in The Folau Factor:
Then it’s a straw man. It is the point. A man has said that the Bible, which he believes to be the word of his god, warns that certain categories of people will go to hell if they don’t repent. His Bible really does say that, so his beliefs aren’t random or arbitrary. All the things he listed are categorised as mortal sins (i.e. if you die unshriven of those sins, your soul goes to hell), there is no question of that.
No, it's not. Folau is having a pop at a section of society based on his beliefs of a book. Nobody is arguing that. People are arguing as to whether or not saying people are going to hell is even an insult. I'm not buying that.
Of course the majority of Christians have moved past that, along with most of society, but his sect is not obliged to move in step along with, say, the Church of England, and us suggesting it should is telling people what is acceptable to believe. We should be very, very careful of that, don’t you think?
I think everybody has a right to think what they want and nobody is obliged to do anything to step in to line so to speak. It's why many people like me are torn in this argument. The fact is that it IS A corporate game now. That same corporate game which has made Folau a global superstar & multi millionaire.
As to your point about racism, I f he said that black people were equally at risk of such a fate, he would not be able to rely on the backing of his Bible, as he can with me being a drunk, or my good buddy being gay. You can rightly point out that both stances are prejudiced, but one has the backing of, in IF’s belief, “indisputable fact” because it’s in the Bible, while the other doesn’t. They are not the same.
It's about pointing at a section of society, nothing more. Crucials point of using black people I think (in my view anyway) is to show this. I'm also fairly sure that the bible belt were quoting parts of the bible during the slave years to justify their actions.
I don’t think you get the point Major. Do you personally spend time with any born again evangelicals? Because if you do I doubt you would say that IF was “having a pop” at anybody. He’s not. He believes (and just to be clear, I don’t) that the Bible is amongst other things an instruction manual that tells everybody how hard it is to get to Heaven and what they need to avoid doing if they don’t want to go to Hell, which are both, it says, real places.
Further, he believes that his God demands that he takes responsibility for helping as many people as he can on the right path to the right place. He believes in “love” and “grace” in the biblical sense and doesn’t see his shepherding people (as he sees it) along a righteous path as an insult, but rather as a favour and a duty. It’s too simple to say he’s having a pop.
Now I think he’s deluded. But I don’t doubt that he believes, in good faith, that he doesn’t have a choice but to speak his truth. And he and his will also believe they are being persecuted for it. If you understand those two things you might realise why he and his supporters will take this all the way.
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@taniwharugby said in The Folau Factor:
They been talking about Maria alot on the Radio this morning...is a tough one for her, given she is entitled to support her husband, she has remained largely quiet on the subject, but since she shared his fundme thing, people have started asking about her views.
This is just the natural progression of the lynch mob.
First it was that he needed to be punished. Then someone calls for him to be fired. Shortly after someone wants to make sure he is never employed again (by trying to have the NRL confirm he would not be registered). Then it becomes about pulling down avenues of funding his right to a hearing in court. After two months the lynch mob are all a bit tired of all that and have figured that they can try and mess with his marriage as well.
It's the very essenence of virtue signalling. "How do I know if you are against bigoted hate speech if you only think he should have been suspended for a month, I think he should be unemployable and his marriage should disintergrate - I must care more".
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@rotated said in The Folau Factor:
@taniwharugby said in The Folau Factor:
They been talking about Maria alot on the Radio this morning...is a tough one for her, given she is entitled to support her husband, she has remained largely quiet on the subject, but since she shared his fundme thing, people have started asking about her views.
This is just the natural progression of the lynch mob.
First it was that he needed to be punished. Then someone calls for him to be fired. Shortly after someone wants to make sure he is never employed again (by trying to have the NRL confirm he would not be registered). Then it becomes about pulling down avenues of funding his right to a hearing in court. After two months the lynch mob are all a bit tired of all that and have figured that they can try and mess with his marriage as well.
It's the very essenence of virtue signalling. "How do I know if you are against bigoted hate speech if you only think he should have been suspended for a month, I think he should be unemployable and his marriage should disintergrate - I must care more".
Aaah! The good old 'let's tar every opposing opinion to mine with an extreme adage ploy'.
It has been a bit more subtle up to now but kudos for coming straight out with it. -
@Crucial said in The Folau Factor:
800,000.00 now
Fucking hell I wake up & I see that Folau has raised A $1,250,000
He's essentially raised DOUBLE the money in HALF the time
I love it
PC Twitter and their Mobs have been played for fools
Exhibit A for the Streisand effect
If you can't raise money from the little guys why not upscale & get bigger donations from anonymous groups
I hope Izzy engages in a scorched strategy & breaks the back of Rugby Australia so they need a bailout from Federal Govn't/Twiggy Forrest
I live for this shit It's going be a ugly in the courtroom Disclosing all correspondence Leaks are going to come from everywhere Lets the games commence
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions