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Lifting the minimum wage may have the positive effect of increasing the differential between the rewards for working vs not working. Other than that the minimum wage is a tool of politics, not economics. As Thomas Sowell, who is a far better economist than me, said:
"There is no inherent reason why low-skilled or high-risk employees are any less employable than high-skilled, low-risk employees. Someone who is five times as valuable to an employer is no more or less employable than someone who is one-fifth as valuable, when the pay differences reflect their differences in benefits to the employer.
This is more than a theoretical point. Historically, lower skill levels did not prevent black males from having labor force participation rates higher than that of white males for every US Census from 1890 through 1930. Since then, the general growth of wage-fixing arrangements: minimum wage laws, labor unions, civil service pay scales, etc. has reversed that and made more and more blacks unemployable despite their rising levels of education and skills: absolutely and relative to whites." -
No Baron I (eventually) made it very clear my personal wish for a higher minimum was to level up the cost field not because I thought it was going to help attract staff.
The snide comments are unnecessary too. If you find my anecdote unbelievable you need to broaden your horizons and get outside of your bubble.
Almost every industry sector in NZ is struggling to find staff. Business pages report this every week.
Seriously - Unemployment is at its lowest rate for over a decade and fell again last quarter but you come out with "unemployment is high and growing". You're often very quick to yell fake news but seem happy enough to tout it.
?sm_au=iVV1r1405PqJTNTFThat's Unbelievable.
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@Rembrandt said in NZ Politics:
@JC Sowell is my current intellectual crush, seems to speak a lot of sense and I wish 'Basic economics' was around in my highschool days, might have shown an interest in economics back then
There's clips on youtube from 1970s television of him debating much the same stuff he is now . I give him full marks for perseverance, theres no way I could have spent the past 50 years calmly discussing stuff like that with the misguided lunatics he's come across. .
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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
No Baron I (eventually) made it very clear my personal wish for a higher minimum was to level up the cost field not because I thought it was going to help attract staff.
The snide comments are unnecessary too. If you find my anecdote unbelievable you need to broaden your horizons and get outside of your bubble.
Almost every industry sector in NZ is struggling to find staff. Business pages report this every week.
Seriously - Unemployment is at its lowest rate for over a decade and fell again last quarter but you come out with "unemployment is high and growing". You're often very quick to yell fake news but seem happy enough to tout it.
?sm_au=iVV1r1405PqJTNTFThat's Unbelievable.
I just think you are full of it. You cannot get crap staff despite paying WAY more than your competitors.
You also want the minimum wage raised so you are more competitive .... Why don't you just offer wages more in line with your competition now? Oh because you want to pay more than minimum wage..... But that means if minimum goes up... You will still need to increase what you pay. .. Because you said you don't like paying minimum.And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Nothing in your story really rings true. I didn't accuse SammyC of being a labour supporter, but I think you definitely are.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Not sure if you're serious, but finding staff who show up to work in a state to work consistently is a damn sight harder than you'd think. Wages sadly have limited correlation to that. If anything, paying more can lead some to cop out more as they have more folding.
Source: Anecdata from up north
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@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Not sure if you're serious, but finding staff who show up to work in a state to work consistently is a damn sight harder than you'd think. Wages sadly have limited correlation to that. If anything, paying more can lead some to cop out more as they have more folding.
Source: Anecdata from up north
He didn't say staff that turned up, he said crap staff.
He said he pays WAY above his competitors and cannot even get crap staff. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback doesn’t that just mean he thinks he’s playing a good salary but still gets unreliable/crap staff?
I’m struggling to follow either of you to be honest.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Not sure if you're serious, but finding staff who show up to work in a state to work consistently is a damn sight harder than you'd think. Wages sadly have limited correlation to that. If anything, paying more can lead some to cop out more as they have more folding.
Source: Anecdata from up north
He didn't say staff that turned up, he said crap staff.
He said he pays WAY above his competitors and cannot even get crap staff.I would have thought if you offer more money than your competitors, assuming the work description is similar, you will probably get interest from superior prospects than those offering less money to do the same job?
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Not sure if you're serious, but finding staff who show up to work in a state to work consistently is a damn sight harder than you'd think. Wages sadly have limited correlation to that. If anything, paying more can lead some to cop out more as they have more folding.
Source: Anecdata from up north
He didn't say staff that turned up, he said crap staff.
He said he pays WAY above his competitors and cannot even get crap staff.I would have thought if you offer more money than your competitors, assuming the work description is similar, you will probably get interest from superior prospects than those offering less money to do the same job?
I would have thought that too .
When you have 4% unemployment those that don’t have jobs tend to exhibit symptoms of extreme ferality or other unemployable traits though.
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@jegga said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in NZ Politics:
And I am sure nobody in NZ is struggling to find crap staff. Which is what you said
Not sure if you're serious, but finding staff who show up to work in a state to work consistently is a damn sight harder than you'd think. Wages sadly have limited correlation to that. If anything, paying more can lead some to cop out more as they have more folding.
Source: Anecdata from up north
He didn't say staff that turned up, he said crap staff.
He said he pays WAY above his competitors and cannot even get crap staff.I would have thought if you offer more money than your competitors, assuming the work description is similar, you will probably get interest from superior prospects than those offering less money to do the same job?
I would have thought that too .
When you have 4% unemployment those that don’t have jobs tend to exhibit symptoms of extreme ferality or other unemployable traits though.
I suppose you just get candidates who are less shit than the others
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From my own perspective, we pay well above minimum wage and attract some good people. The problem with a rise in the minimum wage isn't our competitors, it's our suppliers who do pay minimum. We can expect a hike in costs, so we have to raise our prices or lay off staff to stay viable. Neither of which is terribly good for the economy.
Given that many of our customers are probably on not a lot more than minimum wage, are they better off with a pay rise? Supermarkets will have to raise prices to cope with increased costs, so disposable incomes for low earners really won't change much. It just seems to be a flawed concept when thought through.
Then there is the tax issue if employers lay off staff to cover the extra costs. Ex employee goes on dole, government provide safety net income from where? Tax. Business pays more tax, lays off more staff to cover costs. Current employees pay more tax, disposable income drops. Back where they started.
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@canefan We are in low inflation environment with low interest rates. Costs haven't gone up much, in fact things have been relatively stable.
Hiking wages will change that.
Disposable income and standard of living are the issue, not minimum wage.
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Snowy people always find things to spend what extra money they have on. It's never enough. I seem to recall seeing numbers a while back that showed we aren't exactly a nation of savers. And we aren't the only ones
That's the point - they are unlikely to have any extra money.
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@Snowy said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Snowy people always find things to spend what extra money they have on. It's never enough. I seem to recall seeing numbers a while back that showed we aren't exactly a nation of savers. And we aren't the only ones
That's the point - they are unlikely to have any extra money.
Wage increases to a degree tie in with a perception of value. If I feel that my staff have worked hard and have made valuable contributions they will be considered for a wage increase. Of course this is tempered by the need to recoup the extra spend somehow....
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Snowy said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@Snowy people always find things to spend what extra money they have on. It's never enough. I seem to recall seeing numbers a while back that showed we aren't exactly a nation of savers. And we aren't the only ones
That's the point - they are unlikely to have any extra money.
Wage increases to a degree tie in with a perception of value. If I feel that my staff have worked hard and have made valuable contributions they will be considered for a wage increase. Of course this is tempered by the need to recoup the extra spend somehow....
Agreed, but that isn't tied to a "minimum" wage increase which is mandated by government.
I give profit share to enhance sales and staff performance / value. Very different to minimum wage.
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You’re repeated accusations of me lying are really tiresome and borderline offensive. Borderline in that over the decades I’ve come to realise that really all you like to do is make a lot of noise. I called you out twice 1 lots of commentators see business confidence surveys as meaningless 2. Unemployment is at a decade long low not high and increasing as you said. I gave an anecdote about my personal experience in hiring. (200 plus staff so a reasonable sample) it was clearly an anecdote just to give another experience but you decide to go all snarky yet again
You’re often wrong Baron. We all are. Just admit it.
Me voting or supporting Labour is another example. I did once in my life in 1978. -
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