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@Rembrandt I guess that is the tricky part, find solutions that have minimal impact on people. With so many competing interests from big business to extremists, finding the balance is hard. I do believe that the voice of the people will ultimately dictate how govts will respond. How those people get their voice or beliefs is the interesting part.
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There's a vast chasm between the measurable, observable, replicable science and quoting the worst case scenarios from models, or the unqualified prognosticators of doom - the politicians and rent seekers.
Where you hop off that train determines whether you're sceptical or a nutjob.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Yep. Believe the university professor scientists (who get grants), or the scientists supported by oil companies and governments?
Dont like this thinking much. I think there are opportunists and lobbyists on both sides, but it is massively lop sided towards the Green side. Huge money in grants,there is a huge corporate and political structure that relies on tax payers funding the movement. Any suggestion it is University professors vs oil companies is laughable in its simplicity and innacuracy. That is just a narrative repeated ad nauseam by the left.
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@antipodean Nice. Where and when you jump on the train to remedy (I think) irrefutable proof that things are changing rapidly) is of course personal choice.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Any suggestion it is University professors vs oil companies is laughable in its simplicity.
I didn't say that. The scientists are all getting paid by somebody. Take your pick.
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@Snowy I know you didn't, I was talking to a broader point and narrative . Politicians, corporations and universities all support tax payers paying shed tons of cash towards this.
That should make everyone suspicious. But it doesn't seem to. It is a bloody good trick
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It is a bloody good trick
Yep, from both sides. Pretty sure that I could ring an oil company and get them to fund a political campaign in exchange for exploration rights in NZ. Like wise a grant to provide a chicken little report.
Ultimately it is hard to know who to believe, but I think most agree that things are changing a little too fast. Do you believe that?
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
It is a bloody good trick
Yep, from both sides. Pretty sure that I could ring an oil company and get them to fund a political campaign in exchange for exploration rights in NZ. Like wise a grant to provide a chicken little report.
I have a mate who works in climate research for one of the uni's in Melbourne and does work producing reports for various entities (I don't have many specifics) and he says just this. He gets asked to provide a report showing X, so he does. Another might ask for a report showing Y. So he does.
His honest opinion is yes things are warming, he is not sure that it is people doing to the warming, but he also can't say they aren't, the data is far too complex to show conclusively either way. He thinks taxing carbon is however laughable and the Paris climate accord a waste of time a large part because he is Chinese and hates the Chinese government and sees them gaming the system.
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We can all agrue about the science until the cows come home.
But its interesting that the first creation of a graph that shows the hockey stick (contrary to all the samples up until this point in time) refused to release his supporting data. I wonder why. Let me think about this for a bit
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@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I think most sensible people are in total agreement with this.
I don't agree. And one day in the future people will look back at a time when a weird madness swept the West (its only the West) where many thought cows farting and a tiny increase in CO2 was responsible for more warming than the sun.
You will maybe see the truth one day.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
Most don't. they just bow down to authority figures. No matter what they are told. And that's the issue the West has today
But can we at least agree that cows farting and burping causing the planet to warm is just a bit out there?
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
many thought cows farting and a tiny increase in CO2 was responsible for more warming than the sun.
That's not what many think, you are making things up to suit your argument from a radical viewpoint.
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
You will maybe see the truth one day.
And so may you.
Let's hope not.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Most don't. they just bow down to authority figures. No matter what they are told. And that's the issue the West has today
But can we at least agree that cows farting and burping causing the planet to warm is just a bit out there?Bullshit (yes I know) on bowing to authority figures. Who are these wimps that you know?
Most people I know are educated and "think for themselves" so they follow the science like you do.
Yes to the latter comment. Carbon stores in trees (and others) is far more important than methane emissions from cows.
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Here's a hockey stick graph we can get behind https://babylonbee.com/news/experts-warn-global-outrage-levels-will-reach-point-of-no-return-in-2020?fbclid=IwAR3VPBEgVZmzMdvmJd5ZssvnKmx0Ehat3Rau-AsKcB3phJsMHmlq5WG8AYk
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.
James Matkin
James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
Updated Nov 18Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.
Are the y-axes measuring the same parameter? Doesn't look like it. Anyone who thinks for themselves may want to check that.
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@booboo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.
James Matkin
James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
Updated Nov 18Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.
Are the y-axes measuring the same parameter? Doesn't look like it. Anyone who thinks for themselves may want to check that.
Define what you mean by parameter in this context. Because the difference doesn't disqualify the comparism. So not sure what your point is.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback Yeah, I did think that too. It's just a different scale, but the most obvious error is that the Mann hockey stick graph was for the Northern Hemispere. The Ball graph is for Europe so they aren't comparable anyway.
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I did a bit more reading about it, this was interesting:
A final thing to consider is that Mann’s Hockey Stick was published in 1998. That wasn’t super early, but was fairly early in the young climate change field of research that I don’t believe it matters today and people are making a great deal of fuss over a 21 year old piece of research that has since been improved upon. Yes, Mann’s hockey stick was published in the preliminary report to the IPCC’s third assessment, but the people who find that objectionable, regularly quote far more doctored bits of research to support their “man made climate change is bunk” claims. People like Roy Spencer, Jo Nova or Lord Mockton practically lie for a living and none of them come close to Mann’s ethics or honesty in his work and that’s not because Mann sets the bar so high, it’s because the so called skeptics set the bar so low.
Wouldn't take too much from those graph comparisons. As I said Ball's one excludes a couple of the largest land masses on the planet.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I did a bit more reading about it, this was interesting:
A final thing to consider is that Mann’s Hockey Stick was published in 1998. That wasn’t super early, but was fairly early in the young climate change field of research that I don’t believe it matters today and people are making a great deal of fuss over a 21 year old piece of research that has since been improved upon. Yes, Mann’s hockey stick was published in the preliminary report to the IPCC’s third assessment, but the people who find that objectionable, regularly quote far more doctored bits of research to support their “man made climate change is bunk” claims. People like Roy Spencer, Jo Nova or Lord Mockton practically lie for a living and none of them come close to Mann’s ethics or honesty in his work and that’s not because Mann sets the bar so high, it’s because the so called skeptics set the bar so low.
Wouldn't take too much from those graph comparisons. As I said Ball's one excludes a couple of the largest land masses on the planet.
This quote is garbage
Mann got upset when Ball made a joke about Mann so he sued Ball. This required that Mann released his supporting calculations etc. He refused to do so so the case was dismissed. So all Mann had to do was release his supporting calcualtion adn evidence to prove Ball wrong and win his case. Why do you think he refused to do this. After having 9 YEARS to do so
Is this someone who has ethics or honesty in his work (also consider the climate-gate emails)
And this hockey stick graph was given center stage in the IPCC's report. It replaced a Tim Ball type graph that clearly showed that based on the majority of ice core sample's and other samples the warm period was a lot warmer than today. There never has been a hockey stick. Its fiction.
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