-
Just on the complexities surrounding the autopsies re: Mr Floyd, this is a very informative video:
-
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
@JC I don't get the standard Trump fan bois response of fake news, corrupt media yada yada all the while ignoring all the lies and BS Trump spouts incessantly.
the States has been in a long drawn out painful decline for decades and really needed someone who would indeed drain the swamp. Problem is they got Trump instead. There's not a flip he hasn't flopped, a promise he hasn't broken or a claim he hasn't invented. The guys clearly out of his depth but somehow the bullying and bluster carries the day.
Its not just Trump. Its Trump and his team.
There is no way Trump could have done this and retained power like he has without a brilliant, powerful and committed support teamIn my view Trump is the front man only
-To display silliness and confusion when strong
-And strength when weakUntil the time is right. Then the team makes their moves. Like firing and appointing people. New trade agreements. Withdrawing from international bodies etc
-
@Winger said in US Politics:
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
@JC I don't get the standard Trump fan bois response of fake news, corrupt media yada yada all the while ignoring all the lies and BS Trump spouts incessantly.
the States has been in a long drawn out painful decline for decades and really needed someone who would indeed drain the swamp. Problem is they got Trump instead. There's not a flip he hasn't flopped, a promise he hasn't broken or a claim he hasn't invented. The guys clearly out of his depth but somehow the bullying and bluster carries the day.
Its not just Trump. Its Trump and his team.
There is no way Trump could have done this and retained power like he has without a brilliant, powerful and committed support teamIn my view Trump is the front man only
-To display silliness and confusion when strong
-And strength when weakUntil the time is right. Then the team makes their moves. Like firing and appointing people. New trade agreements. Withdrawing from international bodies etc
Delusional.
-
@Ihadit said in US Politics:
@dogmeat If I may, I would like to comment further;
Most if not all the protest in the US are in Democratically controlled cities and they are where lockdown measures have been most strictly enforced.
These Democratic Leaders, quick to fine and even jail average citizens for violating their lockdown edicts, have shown indecisiveness in action, excessive restraint in enforcing laws and protecting the people and their property, and otherwise exhibiting weak leadership abilities in dealing with the criminal arsonists and thieves that have infiltrated otherwise peaceful protesters, thereby emboldening them and making the situation much worse.
You may be right. What Trump has done may be more of the underlying factor than may first appear. It hasn’t just helped the blacks but other races as well including whites.
But...why is it spreading outside the US?
Do you know a single thing about London?
-
Good to see Mattis giving an opinion:
In Union There Is Strength
I have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words "Equal Justice Under Law" are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.
When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.
We must reject any thinking of our cities as a "battlespace" that our uniformed military is called upon to "dominate." At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict— between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part.
Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders
who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.
James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that "America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more
forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat." We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.
Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that "The Nazi slogan for destroying us...was 'Divide and Conquer.' Our American answer is 'In Union there is Strength.'" We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln's "better angels," and listen to them, as we work to unite.
Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
James Mattis -
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
@JC I don't get the standard Trump fan bois response of fake news, corrupt media yada yada all the while ignoring all the lies and BS Trump spouts incessantly.
The problem is that a lot of anti-Trump news does turn out to be fake or so twisted as to be fake. The media (on both sides) share a lot of the blame for the current political situation in the US. They've looked for headlines rather than fact and seem more interested in whipping up outrage than informing people.
In about 20 years time when all the hooha dies down and things can be viewed more dispassionately its going to be very interesting how history judges Trump. Historically he reminds me most of Commodus - didn't that turn out well for Rome.
I think history may judge Obama even harsher. He exacerbated the cultural divide in the US, withdrew from the world, and pretty much looked on while whole swathes of US industry disappeared and ignored the social impacts.
Hilary would have been no better. Biden certainly isn't. Poor America. Poor world.
I worry Biden is going to as divisive as Trump, if not more. I think he'll be too weak to hold back those in his party who seem out for revenge against Trump, his supporters and voter base.
I just hope some sensible heads in the US realise the dangers, wind back the rhetoric and realise that those who disagree with you aren't evil or un-American. But I'm not holding my breath.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
I think history may judge Obama even harsher. He exacerbated the cultural divide in the US, withdrew from the world, and pretty much looked on while whole swathes of US industry disappeared and ignored the social impacts.
You think Obama was more divisive than Trump, and Biden will be more divisive than Trump?
Mattis above says: "Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try." That's about right I reckon.You think Obama withdrew from the world more than Trump? The coronavirus response and pulling out of the WHO, the games with the G7, the Iran deal gone, Kyoto protocol, even Hong Kong just recently etc etc. Trump probably wouldn't have an ally in the world were it not for America's money and historical status.
You think Trump's current 15% unemployment and the social impacts from that are going to be considered less serious than what happened during Obama's years?
-
@reprobate said in US Politics:
You think Obama was more divisive than Trump, and Biden will be more divisive than Trump?
Not too sure I made that assertion. My argument is Obama failed to address the growing divisions which set the scene for Trump's victory. And he was as divisive a President as G W Bush.
As for Biden, this is a bloke who said black Trump voters "ain't black" & who recently called Trump voters "people who think all Mexicans are rapists and all Muslims evil". Do you think he's capable of - or even interested in - reaching out to "deplorable" Trump voters to unite the country?
You think Obama withdrew from the world more than Trump?
Yeah, I do. Obama left a power vacuum in the ME which Putin happily filled. His handling of Assad & North Korea was frankly embarrassing. Personally, I think Trump's diplomacy is appalling and counter-productive, but he doesn't just walk away like Obama seemed to do when things got tough.
You think Trump's current 15% unemployment and the social impacts from that are going to be considered less serious than what happened during Obama's years?
Not too sure what point you are trying to make here. Covid lock-downs have impacted every Western economy so it's hardly "Trump's 15% unemployment" .
But I'd be surprised if either Trump or Biden handle the social and economic fallout well - probably just as poorly as Obama did.
-
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
I think history may judge Obama even harsher. He exacerbated the cultural divide in the US, withdrew from the world, and pretty much looked on while whole swathes of US industry disappeared and ignored the social impacts.
You think Obama was more divisive than Trump, and Biden will be more divisive than Trump?
I wouldn’t say he was more decisive than Trump, but I get the sentiment. Obama’s presidency encouraged a arrogant paternalism amongst many of his supporters. I’m not sure that was Obama’s fault, but the event of his election certainly encouraged a whole lot of unelected people to assume they had a mandate for imposing a cultural change without going through the hassle of composing and winning an argument first.
In many ways Obama’s main fault was the same as Trump’s, albeit starting from a different place - a failure to actually lead. Obama was a consensus politician in an environment that had no intention of reaching one. Trump is a myth-builder and an autocrat. He confuses power with leadership, doesn’t tolerate dissent and sees compromise as a weakness. And so he courts sycophants. He’s been telling people how smart he is (and I’ve seen no evidence of him being any better than average) for so long he believes it himself, and why wouldn’t he, because he’s surrounded himself with people who feed his ego.
-
@Toddy said in US Politics:
What news source do people here use to follow what's going on in the States? I'm guessing most aren't impartial, but surely some must be better than others.
I'm currently subscribed to the WSJ and have been enjoying it so far.
Bro, I sit in front of the TV flicking between Fox News and CNN just for the laughs.
-
@JC said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
I think history may judge Obama even harsher. He exacerbated the cultural divide in the US, withdrew from the world, and pretty much looked on while whole swathes of US industry disappeared and ignored the social impacts.
You think Obama was more divisive than Trump, and Biden will be more divisive than Trump?
I wouldn’t say he was more decisive than Trump, but I get the sentiment. Obama’s presidency encouraged a arrogant paternalism amongst many of his supporters. I’m not sure that was Obama’s fault, but the event of his election certainly encouraged a whole lot of unelected people to assume they had a mandate for imposing a cultural change without going through the hassle of composing and winning an argument first.
In many ways Obama’s main fault was the same as Trump’s, albeit starting from a different place - a failure to actually lead. Obama was a consensus politician in an environment that had no intention of reaching one. Trump is a myth-builder and an autocrat. He confuses power with leadership, doesn’t tolerate dissent and sees compromise as a weakness. And so he courts sycophants. He’s been telling people how smart he is (and I’ve seen no evidence of him being any better than average) for so long he believes it himself, and why wouldn’t he, because he’s surrounded himself with people who feed his ego.
Obama was pretty successful in navigating a number of difficult issues through the Illinois legislature, but whether it was naivety or shortsightedness, I believe he thought he could take that bipartisanship to the Feds. Was never going to happen.
-
@JC said in US Politics:
Trump is a myth-builder and an autocrat. He confuses power with leadership, doesn’t tolerate dissent and sees compromise as a weakness. And so he courts sycophants. He’s been telling people how smart he is (and I’ve seen no evidence of him being any better than average) for so long he believes it himself, and why wouldn’t he, because he’s surrounded himself with people who feed his ego
Any competent leader will not allow public dissent.
And he hasn't done badly if he's unable to lead with only weak agreeable yes men and women in his team. And also doing this all by himself when he's not smart. -
@Winger said in US Politics:
Any competent leader will not allow public dissent.
And he hasn't done badly if he's unable to lead with only weak agreeable yes men and women in his team. And also doing this all by himself when he's not smart.Serious question. Is this satire?
-
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
@Ihadit said in US Politics:
@dogmeat If I may, I would like to comment further;
Most if not all the protest in the US are in Democratically controlled cities and they are where lockdown measures have been most strictly enforced.
These Democratic Leaders, quick to fine and even jail average citizens for violating their lockdown edicts, have shown indecisiveness in action, excessive restraint in enforcing laws and protecting the people and their property, and otherwise exhibiting weak leadership abilities in dealing with the criminal arsonists and thieves that have infiltrated otherwise peaceful protesters, thereby emboldening them and making the situation much worse.
You may be right. What Trump has done may be more of the underlying factor than may first appear. It hasn’t just helped the blacks but other races as well including whites.
But...why is it spreading outside the US?
Do you know a single thing about London?
Is there a problem of police brutalising black people in London?
-
@Winger said in US Politics:
@JC said in US Politics:
Trump is a myth-builder and an autocrat. He confuses power with leadership, doesn’t tolerate dissent and sees compromise as a weakness. And so he courts sycophants. He’s been telling people how smart he is (and I’ve seen no evidence of him being any better than average) for so long he believes it himself, and why wouldn’t he, because he’s surrounded himself with people who feed his ego
Any competent leader will not allow public dissent.
Who said public? Trump doesn’t allow people advising him to have opinions that don’t coincide with his. And in any case any competent leader, of anything, understands that dissent is part of life and learns to harness it like everything else. if you have hired or appointed someone for their competence and they don’t agree with you on something, chances are they didn’t become incompetent overnight so maybe listening to what they have to say is a good place to start.
And he hasn't done badly if he's unable to lead with only weak agreeable yes men and women in his team.
He has achieved fuck all. Governments don’t create successful economies, businesses and people do. If this administration can take credit for the good times he can take credit for the current huge unemployment too, can’t he, in which case he should do the decent thing and disappear.
“And also doing this all by himself when he's not smart.”
Doing what? Name the things he did, not the things he took credit for, the things he planned and executed, that only happened because he created the executive framework for them. Where’s his New Deal? His Apollo Program, his Reaganomics, or his Civil Rights Act? Nowhere. He’s a blowarse whose rhetoric impresses the kind of people who believe he’s smart based only on the evidence of his self-aggrandisement.
A person who thinks he has achieved something when he tells people what they want to hear is no leader and certainly no thinker. If he found arguments to win over those who disagree with him then I’d be impressed. If he listened with an open mind to those he disagreed with, learned from them and adapted his thinking to incorporate a wider gamut of ideas then I’d be impressed. But this president won’t do any of those things. He’s a stubborn old man with an inflated ego who blagged his way into a job that’s beyond his capabilities.
-
@junior said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
@Ihadit said in US Politics:
@dogmeat If I may, I would like to comment further;
Most if not all the protest in the US are in Democratically controlled cities and they are where lockdown measures have been most strictly enforced.
These Democratic Leaders, quick to fine and even jail average citizens for violating their lockdown edicts, have shown indecisiveness in action, excessive restraint in enforcing laws and protecting the people and their property, and otherwise exhibiting weak leadership abilities in dealing with the criminal arsonists and thieves that have infiltrated otherwise peaceful protesters, thereby emboldening them and making the situation much worse.
You may be right. What Trump has done may be more of the underlying factor than may first appear. It hasn’t just helped the blacks but other races as well including whites.
But...why is it spreading outside the US?
Do you know a single thing about London?
Is there a problem of police brutalising black people in London?
Not relevant to my point.
The answer is no though.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@Winger said in US Politics:
Any competent leader will not allow public dissent.
And he hasn't done badly if he's unable to lead with only weak agreeable yes men and women in his team. And also doing this all by himself when he's not smart.Serious question. Is this satire?
Disturbingly I think he's being serious
-
@JC said in US Politics:
A person who thinks he has achieved something when he tells people what they want to hear is no leader and certainly no thinker.
I think you may have accidentally summed up an awful lot of world leaders in that sentence...
-
@JC to be honest, as much as I disagree with @Winger, I can’t sit here and nod along with you most recent post either.
Trump has achieved a lot in a small time. He put USA first and foremost. The Dems were pretty heavy on foreign policy, not so on domestic. Obama talked a lot, achieved not a lot.
People always respond to leadership. Trump took a lot of disheartened yanks and picked them up. The stats are there. He can’t be given no credit for the record unemployment then expect to absorb full blame for what’s happened since Covid. That’s not fair.
Trump has been a catastrophe the last few months, no question. But he does still have a fair bit of goodwill from many sections, and not just because of blind loyalty.
US Politics