Black Lives Matter
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@barbarian said in Black Lives Matter:
@Rembrandt said in Black Lives Matter:
They don't see the riots, don't know that the martyrs are almost exclusively rapists/violent offenders resisting arrest.
Not sure I love his argument. Why does the rap sheet of some of these people matter when they are brutally gunned down by police? In the case of George Floyd he clearly wasn't a nice man, but that doesn't justify his treatment.
It's the same standard you apply to Avi Yemini on the Auspol thread.
agreed, the content of the character has no bearing on the principle, a concession we all must make in order to receive rights and a civil society.
Your example of George Floyd will cause more problems when the defence and autopsy shows that the police treatment of floyd for the entire interaction didn't cause his death. It's simply not an example of police brutality.
I don't know how that will affect the blm movement and supporters
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
Your example of George Floyd will cause more problems when the defence and autopsy shows that the police treatment of floyd for the entire interaction didn't cause his death. It's simply not an example of police brutality.
I don't know how that will affect the blm movement and supporters
What are you basing that prediction on? Haven't read anything about that possibility, not that I'm discounting it.
Even if that's the case I don't think it affects the movement at all.
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@barbarian entire video footage and I trusted toxicology reports from my echo chamber commentators, ( I know but what else is there?)
However, here's an article from a "sympathetic" news source outside of my echo chamber that is enough to muddy the waters with toxicological info and a lack of trauma to indicate asphyxiation.
Oh and Covid pops up to further cast doubt, as it is want to do 🙂
"This medical examiner's report does not mention asphyxiation. However, according to prosecutors, in charging documents filed last week, early results "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."
The medical examiner's report also details blunt-force injuries to the skin of Floyd's head, face and upper lip, as well as the shoulders, hands and elbows and bruising of the wrists consistent with handcuffs.
Signed by Dr. Andrew M. Baker, it says Floyd had tested positive for the novel coronavirus on April 3. A post-mortem nasal swab confirmed that diagnosis. The report notes that because a positive result for coronavirus can persist for weeks after the disease has resolved, "the result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent ... positivity from previous infection."
In addition to fentanyl and methamphetamine, the toxicology report from the autopsy showed that Floyd also had cannabinoids in his system when he died.
Floyd also had heart disease, hypertension and sickle cell trait — a mostly asymptomatic form of the more serious sickle cell disease, an inherited blood disorder that primarily affects African Americans."
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@Frank quite right, it's entirely messy and not as straight forward as we've been lead to believe. The interactions with the police on video will feature in the trial.
But this complicated instance of 30 odd minutes is the cornerstone of a movement that will cause much turmoil for our kids over the next 10+ years.
A movement that no one can adequately define, yet will be universally present in our lives
Look out for the rise of "anti-racism". That will divide us further into racists and non racists
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@canefan agree it could, but I ain't no coroner or even a layman on what causes death by asphyxiation.
He complained of not being able to breathe more times while unrestrained than on the ground🤔
I'm going to stick my neck out here (unfortunate phrase), and contrary to some people's opinions, I have never suffocated anyone but, yeah, kneeling on someone's throat is likely to have consequences. Not a big believer in that sort of coincidence myself.
He wasn't going to die in those 8 minutes otherwise, would be my assumption.
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@canefan agree it could, but I ain't no coroner or even a layman on what causes death by asphyxiation.
He complained of not being able to breathe more times while unrestrained than on the ground🤔
And if he had covid....
The bolded statements are related. Then he went quiet and the officer stayed on him. You can make someone unconscious in less than a minute by cutting off their air supply. After that the person can die within minutes if air supply and breathing is not restored. Basically if a person stops breathing their chance of survival of a cardiac event drops 10% every minute. 8 minutes is plenty to render a person in poor shape
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@Snowy and 100% fair enough mate.
Unfortunately or fortunately, we have to get right into the weeds on this one and examine everything including the amount of pressure the cop was exerting and if, when agreeing to Floyd's request to be put on the ground the officer was restraining him with an (at the time) officially sanctioned police restrainment technique.
The video before is the puzzling thing. There has been a lot of stock invested in the brutal, intentional murder narrative.
But whatever, it's all a bit irrelevant now as blm has become a thing and as vague as its goals and objectives are, the justification of the 2020 resurrection of BLM similarly seems to not matter so much either.
Wonder what 2024 will look like🙂
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
we have to get right into the weeds on this one and examine everything including the amount of pressure the cop was exerting and if, when agreeing to Floyd's request to be put on the ground the officer was restraining him with an (at the time) officially sanctioned police restrainment technique.
The former we will never know, the latter will come out I guess as a police restraint technique.
They probably got that one wrong, given that he died.
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@Snowy I think strangulation leaves marks and apparently most states "adjusted" the kneeling restraint technique🙂
To be clear, I don't have a preference for murder or just police procedure (I guess the 2 outcome extremes)
If he's guilty punish him as an individual, if not guilty, well that's the justice system, fix it if need be.But it's not indicative of other police officers
But the shocking part of all of this for me is seeing how easily our empathy instincts can be manipulated by modern media, and then spread worldwide. How quickly we made most US cops be versions of Derek Chauvin and how inherently that distortion engulfed and came to represent all policing.
And then the corporate and international support and is it all about US police brutality and is this the prime example of white supremacy? I suppose so.
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@barbarian Resisting arrest 100% comes in to play. If the police are picking you up because of a warrant for rape, from the home of a rape victim that also comes into play, as does knowing someone is a violent felon especially with a history of armed assault . Unsurprisingly the fella who died over the weekend resulting in the Lancaster, Pennsylvania riots was attacking a police officer with a knife and has a history of 4 previous stabbings..the police called to help from a women whom the dead fella was abusing. That's all pretty different than 'Avi is a bit mean to people that he interviews'
Although I try to avoid it I still get the nauseating mainstream news coverage painting George Floyd and Jacob who-gives-a-fuck as some sort of saintly figures without even mentioning the full known circumstances such as 911 call, reason for the warrant leading to arrest, video footage showing a more complete and potentially complex picture. Media is no longer about informing its about telling you how to feel and the end result is mayhem on the streets and actual innocent lives ruined.
Can you give me an example of a black man brutally gunned down by police who wasn't resisting arrest or even fighting with police? Absolute genuine question. I can give a few white guys but they don't count for some reason.
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
But it's not indicative of other police officers
Absolutely not. There will be plenty of good guys. How the other officers didn't respond is beyond me. One was Chinese heritage, one other mixed (Mexican?) race. I can't remember because it it isn't about race to me.
Police brutality, procedures and where that ends? Good place to start? I also have massive support for the police, it is a tough job, and the lines are blurred how far they go - but killing people? That's pushing it.
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@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
How the other officers didn't respond is beyond me. One was Chinese heritage, one other mixed (Mexican?) race. I can't remember because it it isn't about race to me.My memory tells me the other officers were very junior in service. Police forces around the world are very aware of the reluctance of junior officers to intervene when a senior officer is perceived to be overstepping the mark. There is now quite a bit of education around this, highlighting that if something goes wrong and you do nothing to intervene you are just as culpable. It still takes balls to step in though. Police can be very brutal towards their own.
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
Random thought: is the best analogy of Black Lives Matter the Greens political party? A fine premise but goes a bit haywire on execution and reasonable solutions.
Decent. Great idea (environment) hijacked by not entirely related agenda (socialism)
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
How the other officers didn't respond is beyond me. One was Chinese heritage, one other mixed (Mexican?) race. I can't remember because it it isn't about race to me.My memory tells me the other officers were very junior in service. Police forces around the world are very aware of the reluctance of junior officers to intervene when a senior officer is perceived to be overstepping the mark. There is now quite a bit of education around this, highlighting that if something goes wrong and you do nothing to intervene you are just as culpable. It still takes balls to step in though. Police can be very brutal towards their own.
Is there anything in police regs around an obligation to assist? I mean, we can argue the different autopsy reports to ascertain whether this was murder or manslaughter or neither, but is there some lesser charge around forcibly detaining while not helping someone clearly in distress? Appreciate it could be very different in the States (and State by State).
Its kind like dying from choking on a chicken wing you ate voluntarily while someone pins you down instead of whacking you on the back. Technically you died from self-inflicted wounds, but the fella sitting on you sure didn't help matters...
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@voodoo said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
How the other officers didn't respond is beyond me. One was Chinese heritage, one other mixed (Mexican?) race. I can't remember because it it isn't about race to me.My memory tells me the other officers were very junior in service. Police forces around the world are very aware of the reluctance of junior officers to intervene when a senior officer is perceived to be overstepping the mark. There is now quite a bit of education around this, highlighting that if something goes wrong and you do nothing to intervene you are just as culpable. It still takes balls to step in though. Police can be very brutal towards their own.
Is there anything in police regs around an obligation to assist? I mean, we can argue the different autopsy reports to ascertain whether this was murder or manslaughter or neither, but is there some lesser charge around forcibly detaining while not helping someone clearly in distress? Appreciate it could be very different in the States (and State by State).
Its kind like dying from choking on a chicken wing you ate voluntarily while someone pins you down instead of whacking you on the back. Technically you died from self-inflicted wounds, but the fella sitting on you sure didn't help matters...
Yes police are obligated to assist. I would imagine the obligation is worldwide, at least in the western world. We are getting trained more in tactical first aid. For example, it used to be 'acceptable' assistance for police to just call for an ambulance after they shot someone. We were not trained to do anything further. Now police are obligated to render first aid by plugging holes and applying tourniquets etc following a shooting.
We are also trained to monitor people closely following restraint, especially following a struggle. One of the first things we are expected to do once someone is under control is to at least put them in the recovery position and monitor breathing. Lying on top of someone for a prolonged time following a struggle can cause them life threatening problems, especially if they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or have an underlying health issue.