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@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial Sorry buddy, you fail the compassion test.
I was shaking my head at the lack of empathy. That's people losing jobs, livelihoods and in some cases houses and their family. Not to mention suicide.
What bullshit. I have a heap of empathy with small businesses in that situation. I used to be one of them.
Putting empathy aside though I can also say through experience that some businesses on the edge add little to the economy in either positive or non negative terms.
We have become the nation of shopkeepers and that energy and productivity should be found another outlet. At least we should try to find those outlets.Perhaps you could have another shot at this sentence then;
"I do think that many of the business victims of COVID would have been running on a knife edge anyway and we need to decide if that is really a beneficial situation for people to be encouraged into"
Because it reads terribly to me.
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial Sorry buddy, you fail the compassion test.
I was shaking my head at the lack of empathy. That's people losing jobs, livelihoods and in some cases houses and their family. Not to mention suicide.
What bullshit. I have a heap of empathy with small businesses in that situation. I used to be one of them.
Putting empathy aside though I can also say through experience that some businesses on the edge add little to the economy in either positive or non negative terms.
We have become the nation of shopkeepers and that energy and productivity should be found another outlet. At least we should try to find those outlets.Perhaps you could have another shot at this sentence then;
"I do think that many of the business victims of COVID would have been running on a knife edge anyway and we need to decide if that is really a beneficial situation for people to be encouraged into"
Because it reads terribly to me.
Depending on the lens you are using.
I am talking about the structure of our economy and that over a long time a lack of good work opportunities has Created a lot of small small businesses that run very tight and are at risk of folding from market upsets.
I would think it would be preferable for productivity to drive more incentives into developing less fragile jobs.
That is a bit of a pipe dream I know but that was the origin of the comment.
If you want to read it as some callous disregard for others wellbeing then I probably can’t change that view as it wasn’t the intention -
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@JC based on the polls, clearly the people value hope optimism and kindness, over a fighter and a doer. I'd agree neither team inspire the imagination
People can be stupid (that is, if they don't like the people I like)
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@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy. -
@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy.I think @Crucial highlighting that the crisis showed a lot of business models were inherently shaky to begin with is a good point, and its perfectly valid to talk about it. It's not "callous disregard" - are we not supposed to have honest discussions about structural issues in the economy, because people sadly lost jobs and businesses?
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@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy.Don’t act all hurt. You said “5 day working week! How will my business survive? The world will collapse! Businesses adapt and the world changes.” Own it.
You’ve completely glossed over the fact that otherwise perfectly OK businesses were discriminated against by a policy, however well-intentioned, that transferred revenue from small companies to large corporates when the decision was made to force people to buy their meat ( for example) from chain supermarkets rather than butchers. Then changes to the minimum wage for some of those same employers. Then proposing a new public holiday. Then more sick leave. And every single time you come out with the same argument, basically that it’s only a small change and if the businesses can’t deal with it maybe they shouldn’t be in business. We both know it’s not a single change, it’s a series of changes heaped on a damaged sector.
Now you post something that suggests they’re just whinging: “how will my business survive”. You’re talking about absolute insults? That’s one right there. People took their lives over this. That actually happened. Maybe show some respect and you’ll get some in return.
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Moving away from Crucial for a moment.
I’ve been reading way to much glee and enthusiasm from people keen to use this crisis to rework the economy to be more in line with their political leanings.
Pointing at businesses saying “see, it’s all broken, tear it all down”
Take away customers, then of course a business will fail. It’s a testament to how resilient they are that they so many have been able to survive for six months in this stupid system where the government picks the winners.
Only a matter of time though, a few lockdowns caused by an incompetent border policy and we are going to see more gone.
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Universities might be next
Universities already hard hit. I have heard they are actively looking at selling land to shore up income, due to lack of overseas enrolments. Seriously people, it's tough out there, and it's only the start of the downturn. Things will get much worse before they get better.
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@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Universities might be next
Universities already hard hit. I have heard they are actively looking at selling land to shore up income, due to lack of overseas enrolments. Seriously people, it's tough out there, and it's only the start of the downturn. Things will get much worse before they get better.
No overseas students next year unis are suffering big time. And all the businesses that depend on them, such as landlords, and service businesses nearby are in trouble. There has to be a way to get these kids in
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The talk about SMEs on the edge pre covid is a bit disappointing. They can be turned around and weren't all doomed to fail in a recession. Mine was a breakeven type enterprise when I got it a couple of years ago. It is now profitable and we have added one staff member. It's about doing things differently not necessarily a bad business model that was going broke.
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@Snowy said in NZ Politics:
The talk about SMEs on the edge pre covid is a bit disappointing. They can be turned around and weren't all doomed to fail in a recession. Mine was a breakeven type enterprise when I got it a couple of years ago. It is now profitable and we have added one staff member. It's about doing things differently not necessarily a bad business model that was going broke.
The comment wasn't meant to be a catch all that referred to all SMEs or a criticism of business acumen. It was more about how some business models served a purpose but were unlikely to sustain much of a hit.
The comment in full context was an attempt to open a discussion on whether businesses that are only viable on low wages are actually as valuable to the economy as they are made out to be. -
There is some truth in most of what has been said above.
There were companies that were obviously on a knife edge already, and the lockdown was the tipping point - was it Burger King and another large business that went into receivership in the first week?
I think other organisations have used this as a chance to do restructures, citing Covid as the reason, when in fact it has just been an opportunity (Tower is one such company)
I know of plenty of businesses that have started post Covid, people buying businesses that were and still are profitable post Covid (owners just had enough of the stress) I also know of ones who have struggled and continue to, while some have had thier t/o increase despite lockdown, one of these was in hospitality too.
It is a shit storm all round.
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@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
The comment in full context was an attempt to open a discussion on whether businesses that are only viable on low wages are actually as valuable to the economy as they are made out to be.
I guess the alternative is mass unemployment, so there must be some value there? I don't know what the "dole" is these days but it must be lower than minimum wage, so we still need those businesses. People earn more, lives are more rewarding, social interaction, etc.
I only have one staff member on minimum wage, the rest are well above it already, so it doesn't affect me much. An extra holiday would, extra sick days would (for the one youngster on minimum wage that abuses it).
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1/3 of businesses fail in the first two years so COVID is definitely going to amplify that. Especially as many of the businesses that fail do so because of poor cash flow rather than a poor business model.
There are some businesses that are doing really well - even some in the sectors supposedly hard hit like hospo. But most are suffering to some extent and it's going to get worse, much worse for many.
When politicians talk the big numbers and congratulate themselves that unemployment is only 7% that is ignoring the human tragedies behind the numbers Hundreds of thousands doing it really tough. Treasury don't forecast unemployment to peak until Q3 next year and it doesn't start to slowly decline again until the end of 2022.
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@canefan that is interesting given the teaching shortages many areas have. So there are a lot of jobs around even if our international market is closed/constrained for a time. Those schools are likely to relax their zoning (if they have it) to attract more local students, so that's going to impact local schools who could lose kids to 'fancier' schools nearby.
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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
1/3 of businesses fail in the first two years so COVID is definitely going to amplify that. Especially as many of the businesses that fail do so because of poor cash flow rather than a poor business model.
Absolutely this. Look at Amazon, they were well funded and the business model was sound.
I was also fortunate that I could fund the lean times, in cash flow without the debt that will cripple you - even with low interest rates.
As @dogmeat says 7% unemployment, just wait for a while...
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So a brief looks shows more than 77,000 people have now taken out some form of income support benefit since the pandemic began. Almost 200,000 getting the wage subsidy (which will end).
Those are awful numbers. The long term effects on NZ will last for many, many years.
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
Moving away from Crucial for a moment.
I’ve been reading way to much glee and enthusiasm from people keen to use this crisis to rework the economy to be more in line with their political leanings.
Pointing at businesses saying “see, it’s all broken, tear it all down”
Take away customers, then of course a business will fail. It’s a testament to how resilient they are that they so many have been able to survive for six months in this stupid system where the government picks the winners.
Only a matter of time though, a few lockdowns caused by an incompetent border policy and we are going to see more gone.
I get that many businesses fail, but if there's going to be an assertion that most of the businesses that have closed were going to soon anyway, I'd like to see some evidence for that. Just because a business runs tight margins doesn't mean they are destined to fail, and why should they be expected to take a hit as big as a draconian lockdown where the government sends all of their customers to their big corporate competitors? It's been so unfair on small business owners it's not even funny, my heart genuinely breaks for them.
Also worth bearing in mind many of the business owners don't actually want to turn into massive companies. Their business is their passion and they are perfectly happy with the income it generates to sustain their lives already. Owning a business is not solely about making as much money as you possibly can, for many it is their baby and having it ripped away from them due to government lockdowns is just heartbreaking.
Watching the debate it really looked like Adern was completely out of touch with the pain NZers are feeling at the moment.
NZ Politics