Black Lives Matter
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@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial said in Black Lives Matter:
Some of the scenarios are quite bizzarre and I sometimes wonder if I can even judge them fairly not living in that world.
I wonder what the reactions would be from some US cops watching our Police TV shows.Our guys seem to be selected for their people skills and are often able to defuse simple situations and stop them going crazy just by their manner. US cops are trained to pull guns first, talk second.
Massive generalisation. This shit is precisely what fuels their bullshit rhetoric.
I think it would be far more accurate to look at these on a state by state basis.
It’s county by county and that’s the big problem - 3000+ different training regimes plus the state troopers.
At least in Commonwealth countries all cops are going to the same state/provincial/national academy and getting taught from the same playbook. Those academies are generally well resourced and for the most part the standard of admission is reasonably high (some may argue that,
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@Kirwan said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial said in Black Lives Matter:
@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial said in Black Lives Matter:
Some of the scenarios are quite bizzarre and I sometimes wonder if I can even judge them fairly not living in that world.
I wonder what the reactions would be from some US cops watching our Police TV shows.Our guys seem to be selected for their people skills and are often able to defuse simple situations and stop them going crazy just by their manner. US cops are trained to pull guns first, talk second.
Massive generalisation. This shit is precisely what fuels their bullshit rhetoric.
I think it would be far more accurate to look at these on a state by state basis.
I know it was. I thought it was obvious that I was talking in very general terms. It was more to compare the general approach in NZ to the US.
Almost a pointless comparison though, even in general terms. If you are a cop in the US, the odds of you being shot at traffic stop are asrtominically higher than in NZ, so of course you get difference policing styles and training.
The US cops need significantly more funding to handle that stress.
It was never my point that they should be more like us. I was simply commenting on how different the policing situations had evolved and how our situation would seem quite incredible to them (partly for the reasons you state)
There is also the chicken and egg situation which is what we have been trying to keep under control for decades. If we arm up then the baddies do too, and vice-versa.
One thing I have noticed myself is that police that openly carry act in a very different manner to those that don't. I'm not criticising, just saying that it has a behavioural effect. I guess that if you know you have a gun on your hip you don't have to act as nice?
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@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial Valid point. I wonder if they had tasers to defuse the situation rather than going for the fatal option when being approached with a knife?
Again, tasers are not a good idea when someone is coming at you with a knife. Did you see the footage of the female cop in Chicago (I think) being stabbed a few pages ago?
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In this instance, I think they could have blasted his legs off.
He wasn't exactly moving fast and there was a good distance between him and the cops.
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I haven't even seen the footage but I always say "Why did they not aim at his thigh, or his left hand? The dopey police had plenty of time, three seconds is a lot if you count it out slowly. Anyway, getting belted into Wednesday week is part of their job and the Bad Luck, You're Dead insurance is pretty good." 😉
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial Valid point. I wonder if they had tasers to defuse the situation rather than going for the fatal option when being approached with a knife?
Again, tasers are not a good idea when someone is coming at you with a knife.
My point was more that non fatal options should be available? Surely there is some solution to disable without killing? We can take an elephant down with tranquilisers but not a human? Rubber bullets? They probably aren't viable now but I'm just saying that we need to work on a technology to get around killing people who are most likely mentally ill to attack a police officer with a knife.
The fatality is one thing but the affect on the police officer goes on too.
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@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial Valid point. I wonder if they had tasers to defuse the situation rather than going for the fatal option when being approached with a knife?
Again, tasers are not a good idea when someone is coming at you with a knife.
My point was more that non fatal options should be available? Surely there is some solution to disable without killing? We can take an elephant down with tranquilisers but not a human? Rubber bullets? They probably aren't viable now but I'm just saying that we need to work on a technology to get around killing people who are most likely mentally ill to attack a police officer with a knife.
The fatality is one thing but the affect on the police officer goes on too.
I like the sentiment and most cops would agree with it. Like you say the problem is the technology. We just don't have it. We would need an all encompassing 'weapon' that can be used in different scenarios fatal and non fatal. This is because cops are carrying around a lot of shit already, there isn't much room for anything else.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial Valid point. I wonder if they had tasers to defuse the situation rather than going for the fatal option when being approached with a knife?
Again, tasers are not a good idea when someone is coming at you with a knife.
My point was more that non fatal options should be available? Surely there is some solution to disable without killing? We can take an elephant down with tranquilisers but not a human? Rubber bullets? They probably aren't viable now but I'm just saying that we need to work on a technology to get around killing people who are most likely mentally ill to attack a police officer with a knife.
The fatality is one thing but the affect on the police officer goes on too.
I like the sentiment and most cops would agree with it. Like you say the problem is the technology. We just don't have it. We would need an all encompassing 'weapon' that can be used in different scenarios fatal and non fatal. This is because cops are carrying around a lot of shit already, there isn't much room for anything else.
I imagine that it would also have to be 100% reliable too. I'm sure the first time it fails to protect a cop from being killed/maimed it'd be cast aside?
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Lives Matter:
@Snowy said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial Valid point. I wonder if they had tasers to defuse the situation rather than going for the fatal option when being approached with a knife?
Again, tasers are not a good idea when someone is coming at you with a knife.
My point was more that non fatal options should be available? Surely there is some solution to disable without killing? We can take an elephant down with tranquilisers but not a human? Rubber bullets? They probably aren't viable now but I'm just saying that we need to work on a technology to get around killing people who are most likely mentally ill to attack a police officer with a knife.
The fatality is one thing but the affect on the police officer goes on too.
I like the sentiment and most cops would agree with it. Like you say the problem is the technology. We just don't have it. We would need an all encompassing 'weapon' that can be used in different scenarios fatal and non fatal. This is because cops are carrying around a lot of shit already, there isn't much room for anything else.
I imagine that it would also have to be 100% reliable too. I'm sure the first time it fails to protect a cop from being killed/maimed it'd be cast aside?
They haven't ditched tasers yet, but they seem to be of limited use. The solutions aren't obvious it seems.
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Wonderful speech from LBJ in 1965 after Selma: https://singjupost.com/lyndon-b-johnson-the-american-promise-1965-speech-full-transcript/?singlepage=1
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@pakman said in Black Lives Matter:
Wonderful speech from LBJ in 1965 after Selma: https://singjupost.com/lyndon-b-johnson-the-american-promise-1965-speech-full-transcript/?singlepage=1
PROGRESS THROUGH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
The real hero of this struggle is the American Negro. His actions and protests, his courage to risk safety and even to risk his life, have awakened the conscience of this Nation. His demonstrations have been designed to call attention to injustice, designed to provoke change, designed to stir reform. He has called upon us to make good the promise of America. And who among us can say that we who would have made the same progress were it not for his persistent bravery, and his faith in American democracy. For at the real heart of battle for equality is a deep-seated belief in the democratic process. Equality depends not on the force of arms or tear gas but depends upon the force of moral right; not on recourse to violence but on respect for law and order. There have been many pressures upon your President and there will be others as the days come and go. But I pledge you tonight that we intend to fight this battle where it should be fought: in the courts, and in the Congress, and in the hearts of men.
We must preserve the right of free speech and the right of free assembly. But the right of free speech does not carry with it, as has been said, the right to holler fire in a crowded theater. We must preserve the right to free assembly, but free assembly does not carry with it the right to block public thoroughfares to traffic. We do have a right to protest, and a right to march under conditions that do not infringe the constitutional rights of our neighbors. And I intend to protect all those rights as long as I am permitted to serve in this office. We will guard against violence, knowing it strikes from our hands the very weapons which we seek — progress, obedience to law, and belief in American values. In Selma as elsewhere we seek and pray for peace. We seek order. We seek unity. But we will not accept the peace of stifled rights, or the order imposed by fear, or the unity that stifles protest. For peace cannot be purchased at the cost of liberty. In Selma tonight, as in every — and we had a good day there — as in every city, we are working for just and peaceful settlement. We must all remember that after this speech I am making tonight, after the police and the FBI and the Marshals have all gone, and after you have promptly passed this bill, the people of Selma and the other cities of the Nation must still live and work together. And when the attention of the Nation has gone elsewhere, they must try to heal the wounds and to build a new community. This cannot be easily done on a battleground of violence, as the history of the South itself shows. It is in recognition of this that men of both races have shown such an outstandingly impressive responsibility in recent days — last Tuesday, again today. -
@Kirwan said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial said in Black Lives Matter:
@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
@Crucial said in Black Lives Matter:
Some of the scenarios are quite bizzarre and I sometimes wonder if I can even judge them fairly not living in that world.
I wonder what the reactions would be from some US cops watching our Police TV shows.Our guys seem to be selected for their people skills and are often able to defuse simple situations and stop them going crazy just by their manner. US cops are trained to pull guns first, talk second.
Massive generalisation. This shit is precisely what fuels their bullshit rhetoric.
I think it would be far more accurate to look at these on a state by state basis.
I know it was. I thought it was obvious that I was talking in very general terms. It was more to compare the general approach in NZ to the US.
Almost a pointless comparison though, even in general terms. If you are a cop in the US, the odds of you being shot at traffic stop are asrtominically higher than in NZ, so of course you get difference policing styles and training.
The US cops need significantly more funding to handle that stress.
I remember aucklandwarlord I think it was saying he would never be a cop in the States. Talked about how killing cops in NZ is really taboo, particularly among gangs, whereas in the States it is the norm.
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I found this article quite interesting. Some background.
Fans are slowly being let back into grounds in the UK, with 2,000 permitted now at games. The players have been taking a knee for Black Lives Matter since football returned a few months ago. So Millwall, a legendary right-wing club (whose supporters are proper old-school football hooligans) boo'd the shit out of the players whilst kneeling. Here is the BBC article on the incident:
This quote here annoys me. Regardless of Millwall history and fans, this comment here pissed me off:
Former Coventry and Aston Villa striker Dion Dublin, who had a loan spell at Millwall in 2002, added: "They don't agree with taking the knee, which means they are racist. They don't agree with Black Lives Matter; that says they are racist to me.
That's just bullshit. And then a follow up one, which at least has one comment of perspective.
The wariness of Black Lives Matter is pretty widely spread in the UK on the back of the political ramifications. Slogans like Defund the Police have really turned people off it. Millwall fans were (rightly) asked for comment and this is what was said:
The Millwall Supporters' Club said the booing was not motivated by racism, but instead in opposition to the political views held by the Black Lives Matter organisation
Booing is a terrible look. And Millwall has a poor reputation so this adds to that. But the club move is moving to arm in arm instead of taking the knee makes a lot of sense to me. Yet, you can be sure as shit it ain't gonna be reported like that ....
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@MajorRage One of my mates said something the other day that resonated with me, though he probably got it rom an inspirational poster rom Athena.
I support my black mates but not BLM. I support my white mates but not KKK. I do not support hate groups.
A bit of a disconnect between BLM and KKK but the gist of it is sound I feel.
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@Catogrande I don't think I'm quite there with Black Lives Matter. I don't believe the intention of it is to spread hate.
I don't agree with their politics though, not even close.
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@MajorRage said in Black Lives Matter:
There you go.
Mill wall fans unite behind anti racism snd equality. Do not unite behind BLM.
I should add though I really wish this would lead to a wider discussion about why this is. There are millions (no exaggeration) in this country who agree with the Millwall fans.
It's just easier to call Millwall fans racist and move on.
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@MajorRage said in Black Lives Matter:
@Catogrande I don't think I'm quite there with Black Lives Matter. I don't believe the intention of it is to spread hate.
I don't agree with their politics though, not even close.
For sue, but it is the hijacking af what is a sound cause that grates somewhat and add to that the herd shouting racism if you don't adhere to their agenda. See Dion Dublin in your previous post.
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@MajorRage said in Black Lives Matter:
@Catogrande I don't think I'm quite there with Black Lives Matter. I don't believe the intention of it is to spread hate.
I don't agree with their politics though, not even close.You don't need to intend to spread hate to actually spread hate. If you constantly keep "othering" and blaming people or groups the hating will take care of itself, as the Rwandans will testify, as will South African farmers, Yugoslav muslims or Cambodian minority groups
If they really want to change minds I don't understand their tactics. You can't force people to empathise, or guilt trip them into it without locking in resentment and resistance. I'm sure the BLM supporters know this, so I can only assume they don't care, or maybe it's exactly what they want. I can't see anything good coming from intentionally alienating a plurality of the population.