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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Peaceful protests?
Seems to depend on which side you are on.
Big concern would be Antifa & BLM fruitcakes now kicking off thinking they have Biden & Harris's support.
That's a disgusting statement. Reading this made my skin crawl.
I think you are confusing legitimate concerns of African Americans with the organisation called BLM. Because the later has serious problems, not least being have anti-Semitic leaders.
And Antifa are violent scum.
Respectfully, I disagree. To me, both causes have very legitimate concerns. Sure, the BLM has some issues but at its heart, it is attempting to bring to the fore the fact of systemic racism including that within many police departments in the U.S.
Also, IMHO, ATIFA are not an organisation as such but it certainly stands against Fascism and white supremacy, both of which are appalling. And quite frankly, they are the result of the rise of violent right wing extremism which is far, far more dangerous.
Antifa are the most ironically named organisation. Actual fascists and shown over and over to be violent thugs.
Again, respectfully disagree. ATIFA = Anti-Fascist and that's exactly what they are. They rose up as an organic response and counter to the growing right wing extremism. They show up as a counter protesters to the right wing nut jobs and I have all the respect in the world for that.
Clearly, the real "violent thugs" that present a real and present danger is the real fascists, the right wing, white nationalists and supremacists. Groups like the Proud Boys and many many others are a far greater threat, it's why the FBI has labeled right wing nationalism/white supremacy as being a much greater risk.
Sorry, I take serious issue with this view.
There is nothing wrong with being a supporter of BLM / Anitfa. At what should be their core (and perhaps is) is a movement to ensure equality for all. It's what they project, it's what they support.
What I take serious issue with, is that any criticism of them has you labelled as a racist / white supremist etc. That is just plain bullshit and deserves to be called out. There is a clear narrative from both to shut down any debate around their organisations with the accusations. Antifa have been present at many marches / protests which have ended in violence. And as for BLM, you'd have to have your head completely in the sand to think these protest have been peaceful as Michelle Obama claims. Further up the thread it said 93% have been peaceful - well that's cool, but do we just ignore the 7% that haven't? I'm as aware as anybody that MSM would rather show violent scuffles than peaceful marches, but these things happened & they shouldn't be ignored.
This is not to try and play down the threat of the far right / white supremacists etc. Quite far from it. I'm no sucker for the bullshit they speak, but that same applies to all organisations. BLM / Antifa are not exempt.
At what point have I said anything like this in BOLD above in your statement. Clearly you read this into my statements, not I.
I didn't say that you did. It's a common narrative which you'll find attached to pretty much so every written, objetionalable piece which raises fair criticisms of both these organisations. What you did say is this:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Peaceful protests?
Seems to depend on which side you are on.
Big concern would be Antifa & BLM fruitcakes now kicking off thinking they have Biden & Harris's support.
That's a disgusting statement. Reading this made my skin crawl.
Which I think is a pretty thinly veiled insult of VM's views. Which comes down to the same narrative.
That Antifa & BLM are above criticism.
I also agree with the bolded statement. But I also can't stand by when people are throwing smears at BLM and ANTIFA when the real issue is with the far right. FFS the FBI agree with this.
Why can't the issue be with both sides? Why is the "REAL" issue with the far-right?
But I have never said anything like what you read into it, so what you read into my words is on your own self @MajorRage
You keep posting things that suggest what I'm reading is what you think. I'm just debating your points which put across, some of which I heavily disagree with.
Sure, ANTIFA have been at many marches which have ended in violence... but who the f*ck else was there? Who were they responding to?
Why is your first question who else is there? It is seemingly impossible in your view that Antifa have caused any violence?
If a bunch of right wing folks choose to do march about something and anitifa turn up purely to counter protest and it ends up in violence, why is that the right-wing marchers fault? If Anitfa do a march and right-wing thugs turn up purely to create havoc, then I think its' fair to say that the right wing folks caused violence. Yet, if it's the reverse, it still seem to be reported that it's the right wing guys fault. That is complete horse shit.
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@JC speaking of crimes, a mob of white people stormed the Capitol, the most important political building at the heart of the federal government of the USA, to try and disrupt the counting of the college ballots. They walked off with stuff, sat in the speaker of the house's chair, walked into representatives' offices. And what was the police response? No tear gas? No riot police? I want someone to say with a straight face that the outcome would have been the same if the protestors were black
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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@NTA said in US Politics:
These guys are just a core of conspiracy theorists, surrounded by opportunists, and a smattering of simpletons, having a giant sook about an election they're too stupid to accept they lost.
Sounds like many of Remainers we have in the UK.
Sorry, just to correct you, that is the domain of "leavers"!
I assume you're being ironic?
Within hours of the 2016 vote to leave the EU, Remain politicians were calling for a re-run in case people had changed their minds. We then had wacky conspiracy theories for years about data mis-use, Russian payments to Leave and gerrymandering.
Which has ended up chief conspiracy theorist, The Guardian's Carole Cadwalldr, admitting in court she had no evidence at all to back up her allegations and that they were largely made up.
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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
Sure, ANTIFA have been at many marches which have ended in violence... but who the f*ck else was there? Who were they responding to?
I think you might have just proved @MajorRage's argument that ANTIFA are only non-violent when people agree with them.
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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Peaceful protests?
Seems to depend on which side you are on.
Big concern would be Antifa & BLM fruitcakes now kicking off thinking they have Biden & Harris's support.
That's a disgusting statement. Reading this made my skin crawl.
I think you are confusing legitimate concerns of African Americans with the organisation called BLM. Because the later has serious problems, not least being have anti-Semitic leaders.
And Antifa are violent scum.
Respectfully, I disagree. To me, both causes have very legitimate concerns. Sure, the BLM has some issues but at its heart, it is attempting to bring to the fore the fact of systemic racism including that within many police departments in the U.S.
Also, IMHO, ATIFA are not an organisation as such but it certainly stands against Fascism and white supremacy, both of which are appalling. And quite frankly, they are the result of the rise of violent right wing extremism which is far, far more dangerous.
Antifa are the most ironically named organisation. Actual fascists and shown over and over to be violent thugs.
Again, respectfully disagree. ATIFA = Anti-Fascist and that's exactly what they are. They rose up as an organic response and counter to the growing right wing extremism. They show up as a counter protesters to the right wing nut jobs and I have all the respect in the world for that.
Clearly, the real "violent thugs" that present a real and present danger is the real fascists, the right wing, white nationalists and supremacists. Groups like the Proud Boys and many many others are a far greater threat, it's why the FBI has labeled right wing nationalism/white supremacy as being a much greater risk.
The Guardian as a trusted, unbiased, factual news source on anti-"fascist" protestors?
Please.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@JC speaking of crimes, a mob of white people stormed the Capitol, the most important political building at the heart of the federal government of the USA, to try and disrupt the counting of the college ballots. They walked off with stuff, sat in the speaker of the house's chair, walked into representatives' offices. And what was the police response? No tear gas? No riot police? I want someone to say with a straight face that the outcome would have been the same if the protestors were black
There's certainly legitimate concerns at how the police reacted which need to be thoroughly investigated.
But the way that Biden Harris & Obama have immediately politiced this - without knowing the facts - and compared it to BLM protests does not bode well for US politics. Exactly the sort of think Trump would do.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@JC speaking of crimes, a mob of white people stormed the Capitol, the most important political building at the heart of the federal government of the USA, to try and disrupt the counting of the college ballots. They walked off with stuff, sat in the speaker of the house's chair, walked into representatives' offices. And what was the police response? No tear gas? No riot police? I want someone to say with a straight face that the outcome would have been the same if the protestors were black
I'm sure if this happened during the BLM shitshow there'd have been a greater presence, but there was almost no capital police police on duty. I will point out that a female that attempted to gain access was shot dead.
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@JC said in US Politics:
@RoninWC I don’t think @MajorRage suggested you had said that. I read it that he doesn’t like that in general anybody who raises any concern is routinely labelled that way.
Edit: BTW for my money, a thug looking for a ruck remains one, no matter the what the purported cause is.
Ah okay, fair enough.
@MajorRage my apologies for the misunderstanding.
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@rotated said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@rotated said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
I'll give you a couple of those but where was Obama inflammatory? If anything he seemed like one of the few Dems who understood the election strategy of making any 2016 Trump voter wanting to switch to Biden in 2020 crawl over broken glass, beg for forgiveness and be publicly flogged was counterproductive.
Obama has a long history of insulting Trump - once calling his presidency a "two-bit dictatorship" - and said this of blue-collar Republican voters.
" .... they are bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Not that much different to Clinton's deplorables, but Obama was smart enough to make them at a private fund-raiser but not smart enough to know they were being recorded.
Trump himself is fair game surely.
One quote from over a decade ago doesn't really support the proposition he has been inflammatory over the past 4-5 years. In fact that selective quote, in it's entirety was actually an astute observation at the time and reflects well on him IMO (what he did to help things is another question obviously)
*"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.
And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."*
If that’s the worst thing he said about Trump voters after the shit many MAGA / Tea Party people said about and did to him then he’s a much better than me and certainly Trump himself
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
@JC speaking of crimes, a mob of white people stormed the Capitol, the most important political building at the heart of the federal government of the USA, to try and disrupt the counting of the college ballots. They walked off with stuff, sat in the speaker of the house's chair, walked into representatives' offices. And what was the police response? No tear gas? No riot police? I want someone to say with a straight face that the outcome would have been the same if the protestors were black
I'm sure if this happened during the BLM shitshow there'd have been a greater presence, but there was almost no capital police police on duty. I will point out that a female that attempted to gain access was shot dead.
Yeah I heard that someone died, haven't heard reports of wider violence though. So can anyone tell me if this protest was known about in advance, and if so why were there so few security at one of the most important buildings in the USA? I can't for a mmoment believe that this whole thing was organized and executed in total secrecy out of the reach of the authorities
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@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here. -
This analysis makes several arguments. First, far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020. Second, terrorism in the United States will likely increase over the next year in response to several factors. One of the most concerning is the 2020 U.S. presidential election, before and after which extremists may resort to violence, depending on the outcome of the election. Far-right and far-left networks have used violence against each other at protests, raising the possibility of escalating violence during the election period.
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.Exactly. We are not talking about just any building, it is the seat of federal power in the USA. And it does not appear to have been some smash and grab raid, those people were hanging around for ages, taking photos in the offices and chambers among other things. And yet the response from authorities could be described as flaccid
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
Even if it were true? I'll say it again, if it was a black mob behaving the same way there are multiple shots fired and a shit ton of riot police onsite really quick. And now a policeman died from his wounds sustained at the protest
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew at 93% of their marches people agree with them?
I don't have a bone in this fight. Surely the discussion should be about the storming of Capitol Hill mere hours after Pence was there and how there were nearly as many injured police as arrests and how they managed to get in and get away so easily? We're not exactly talking about the A team here.I agree and I think I've said that before.
But the things that would concern me if I was an American, is the way Biden & co. have immediately used it to foster division by claiming one side of the culture war were hard done by the police, and what that bodes for the future of US politics.
Even if it were true? I'll say it again, if it was a black mob behaving the same way there are multiple shots fired and a shit ton of riot police onsite really quick
I'm agreeing with you. The police response needs to be investigated.
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America was built, in no small part, on the backs of slave labour. They have a long history of institutionalised racism towards black Americans. Regardless of how difficult the situation is authorities and white Americans need to at least act with a little sympathy to that history
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@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@RoninWC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@MajorRage said in US Politics:
Peaceful protests?
Seems to depend on which side you are on.
Big concern would be Antifa & BLM fruitcakes now kicking off thinking they have Biden & Harris's support.
That's a disgusting statement. Reading this made my skin crawl.
I think you are confusing legitimate concerns of African Americans with the organisation called BLM. Because the later has serious problems, not least being have anti-Semitic leaders.
And Antifa are violent scum.
Respectfully, I disagree. To me, both causes have very legitimate concerns. Sure, the BLM has some issues but at its heart, it is attempting to bring to the fore the fact of systemic racism including that within many police departments in the U.S.
Also, IMHO, ATIFA are not an organisation as such but it certainly stands against Fascism and white supremacy, both of which are appalling. And quite frankly, they are the result of the rise of violent right wing extremism which is far, far more dangerous.
Antifa are the most ironically named organisation. Actual fascists and shown over and over to be violent thugs.
Again, respectfully disagree. ATIFA = Anti-Fascist and that's exactly what they are. They rose up as an organic response and counter to the growing right wing extremism. They show up as a counter protesters to the right wing nut jobs and I have all the respect in the world for that.
Clearly, the real "violent thugs" that present a real and present danger is the real fascists, the right wing, white nationalists and supremacists. Groups like the Proud Boys and many many others are a far greater threat, it's why the FBI has labeled right wing nationalism/white supremacy as being a much greater risk.
Stop your nonsense.
Joe Biden clearly stated, in a presidential debate that "Anitfa are an idea not a movement"He makes it clear that they are not an organisation, so listen to the president elect and cease your scare mongering.
I should know, I have them as my avatar!
End of story
US Politics