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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
Show me. Then let me point you to the fact checkers on what Trump says.
Spend a few minutes checking how his "They are animals" comments on Mexican immigration were reported against who he was referring to.
Or check the widely held view and media reports he praised white supremacists calling them "good people" against what he actually said.
Or the misleading editing of video to make him look rude and oaf-ish when feeding Kio with Japanese PM Abe.
The media, along with the Democrats, deserve as much of the blame as Trump for the poison that exist in US politics
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@Victor-Meldrew thanks, I will.
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@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
I thought you were going to say he did well regards economics, actually
Middle East, um, I am not sure, he seems a little chummy with Saudi Arabia and Netanyahu for my liking.
China: well, that is interesting, hard to say from where I'm looking but could definitely have been worse.
Seems to have gotten on very well with UK leaders.Not an expert but would have thought those would tend to be kind of opposing concepts?
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If these reports are true (and who knows) this could get very interesting.
1 Trump says Pence can stop the election process
2 MAGA types threaten Pence (and by proxy family, who were reportedly with him).
3 Journalists points out even acting Presidents get lifetime security
4 Pence reconsiders 25th amendment (and possibly hero status from swinging voters and non-Trump Republicans going into next Presidential election). -
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
I thought you were going to say he did well regards economics, actually
Middle East, um, I am not sure, he seems a little chummy with Saudi Arabia and Netanyahu for my liking.
China: well, that is interesting, hard to say from where I'm looking but could definitely have been worse.
Seems to have gotten on very well with UK leaders.Not an expert but would have thought those would tend to be kind of opposing concepts?
Not an expert but would have thought those would tend to be kind of opposing concepts?
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
If these reports are true (and who knows) this could get very interesting.
1 Trump says Pence can stop the election process
2 MAGA types threaten Pence (and by proxy family, who were reportedly with him).
3 Journalists points out even acting Presidents get lifetime security
4 Pence reconsiders 25th amendment (and possibly hero status from swinging voters and non-Trump Republicans going into next Presidential election).Don't quite follow your logic, but think he'd get a bigger lift from"hero status" for standing up for the rule of law rather than appealing to the Trumpist nutjobs.
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Pence is a bible toting, hardcore conservative with some pretty regressive ideas, isn't he? He wouldn't be very popular outside the bible belt, right?
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@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
-
@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Foreign policy, I grudgingly agree
US economy, I think his policies were pretty short-term focussed, tax cuts aside (though no real plan to fund them), and unlikely to provide real long term growth opportunities. Lots of issues with his health and energy policy that i won't get into.
Election possibility ex-Covid, yep, totally agree, would have walked in. But mostly because of the appalling way the Dems have gone about the last 4yrs. Idiotic impeachment attempt, ludicrous campaign, so many out of touch gaffes (Pelosi’s ice cream fridge has to take the cake) , poor ultimate candidates.
Its "funny" and really bizarre to think, but if Hillary had actually campaigned a bit harder and cleverer, then we would not be having these discussions. It was totally hers to lose, and she pulled off a stunning loss.
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Trump isn't the worst president ever in my view, that's probably one of the clowns from the 1800s (the first few were solid, then the quality dropped, then Lincoln was excellent, then post-Civil War had some absolute disgraces to humanity before Teddy Roosevelt). Trump got plenty of stuff done that is standard Republican fare, so would probably go down as one of the better presidents in terms of getting party policy implemented, albeit with some high profile failures like not being able to repeal the ACA/Obamacare.
On the other hand, there's a serious case for impeachment to be made about a sitting president making statements via Twitter that bear at least a passing resemblance to sections of the above section of US law, a section which starts with Treason. We're not talking about some young muppet who can be excused for not thinking everything through since that's what young muppets do - this is the President of the USA, Commander-in-Chief, Head of the Civil Service, principle diplomat etc. It's his job to be better than that. Trump also refused to authorise the National Guard being deployed - Pence ended up doing it from the basement of the Capitol.
On the subject of impeachment, impeachment was invented by English Parliament in 1376 and High Crimes and Misdemeanors as a term dates back to 1386, and was specifically coined to include issues other than criminal behaviour (many impeachments over the centuries in England and in the history of the USA have been for abuse of power, gross incompetence or negligence, insanity, and a variety of other issues that aren't illegal). The term was included in the US constitution as grounds for impeachment because treason and bribery were obvious but too narrow, and the drafters were aware of Hastings (Governor-General of Bengal) who was a famous example at the time of someone who impeachment seemed designed for, so used a term that was intended for wider application than criminal activity (despite the word crime appearing in the phrase).
I note all that because quite frankly, Trump's (mis)conduct meets definitions as intended by the framers of the Constitution, so let's see some of those Republican originalists putting their actions where their mouths have been.
Principles aside because who has time for those, impeachment would mean no more pardons, potentially disqualifying Trump from further offices (not just President), and also mean Trump not being eligible for the normal pension, security detail and all the other ex-president perks.
Fun precedent - impeachment can continue even after Trump is out of office, as it has been done before for judges who resigned before impeachment proceedings started but after the articles of impeachment were introduced (to disqualify them from further office).
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@Godder said in US Politics:
Trump isn't the worst president ever in my view, that's probably one of the clowns from the 1800s (the first few were solid, then the quality dropped, then Lincoln was excellent, then post-Civil War had some absolute disgraces to humanity before Teddy Roosevelt). Trump got plenty of stuff done that is standard Republican fare, so would probably go down as one of the better presidents in terms of getting party policy implemented, albeit with some high profile failures like not being able to repeal the ACA/Obamacare.
On the other hand, there's a serious case for impeachment to be made about a sitting president making statements via Twitter that bear at least a passing resemblance to sections of the above section of US law, a section which starts with Treason. We're not talking about some young muppet who can be excused for not thinking everything through since that's what young muppets do - this is the President of the USA, Commander-in-Chief, Head of the Civil Service, principle diplomat etc. It's his job to be better than that. Trump also refused to authorise the National Guard being deployed - Pence ended up doing it from the basement of the Capitol.
On the subject of impeachment, impeachment was invented by English Parliament in 1376 and High Crimes and Misdemeanors as a term dates back to 1386, and was specifically coined to include issues other than criminal behaviour (many impeachments over the centuries in England and in the history of the USA have been for abuse of power, gross incompetence or negligence, insanity, and a variety of other issues that aren't illegal). The term was included in the US constitution as grounds for impeachment because treason and bribery were obvious but too narrow, and the drafters were aware of Hastings (Governor-General of Bengal) who was a famous example at the time of someone who impeachment seemed designed for, so used a term that was intended for wider application than criminal activity (despite the word crime appearing in the phrase).
I note all that because quite frankly, Trump's (mis)conduct meets definitions as intended by the framers of the Constitution, so let's see some of those Republican originalists putting their actions where their mouths have been.
Principles aside because who has time for those, impeachment would mean no more pardons, potentially disqualifying Trump from further offices (not just President), and also mean Trump not being eligible for the normal pension, security detail and all the other ex-president perks.
Fun precedent - impeachment can continue even after Trump is out of office, as it has been done before for judges who resigned before impeachment proceedings started but after the articles of impeachment were introduced (to disqualify them from further office).
Mate, must be after midnight where you are, so that's a quality post. I can't fault it.
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@Godder said in US Politics:
Trump isn't the worst president ever in my view, that's probably one of the clowns from the 1800s (the first few were solid, then the quality dropped, then Lincoln was excellent, then post-Civil War had some absolute disgraces to humanity before Teddy Roosevelt). Trump got plenty of stuff done that is standard Republican fare, so would probably go down as one of the better presidents in terms of getting party policy implemented, albeit with some high profile failures like not being able to repeal the ACA/Obamacare.
On the other hand, there's a serious case for impeachment to be made about a sitting president making statements via Twitter that bear at least a passing resemblance to sections of the above section of US law, a section which starts with Treason. We're not talking about some young muppet who can be excused for not thinking everything through since that's what young muppets do - this is the President of the USA, Commander-in-Chief, Head of the Civil Service, principle diplomat etc. It's his job to be better than that. Trump also refused to authorise the National Guard being deployed - Pence ended up doing it from the basement of the Capitol.
On the subject of impeachment, impeachment was invented by English Parliament in 1376 and High Crimes and Misdemeanors as a term dates back to 1386, and was specifically coined to include issues other than criminal behaviour (many impeachments over the centuries in England and in the history of the USA have been for abuse of power, gross incompetence or negligence, insanity, and a variety of other issues that aren't illegal). The term was included in the US constitution as grounds for impeachment because treason and bribery were obvious but too narrow, and the drafters were aware of Hastings (Governor-General of Bengal) who was a famous example at the time of someone who impeachment seemed designed for, so used a term that was intended for wider application than criminal activity (despite the word crime appearing in the phrase).
I note all that because quite frankly, Trump's (mis)conduct meets definitions as intended by the framers of the Constitution, so let's see some of those Republican originalists putting their actions where their mouths have been.
Principles aside because who has time for those, impeachment would mean no more pardons, potentially disqualifying Trump from further offices (not just President), and also mean Trump not being eligible for the normal pension, security detail and all the other ex-president perks.
Fun precedent - impeachment can continue even after Trump is out of office, as it has been done before for judges who resigned before impeachment proceedings started but after the articles of impeachment were introduced (to disqualify them from further office).
Fair enough, and great historical content.
But if Biden is serious about healing, impeachment is a horrible idea.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Really?
-
@booboo said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Really?
His poll numbers were pretty good until Covid.
-
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@booboo said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Really?
His poll numbers were pretty good until Covid.
A fair and plausible assessment. To be fair up to that point the dems weren't exactly moving the needle on their own. I can't remember if they got a bounce once Biden was confirmed as the dems candidate or not. Could Biden have stood up to 3 live debates and the rigours of a proper nationwide campaign? I'm not convinced but we will never know
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@booboo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
If these reports are true (and who knows) this could get very interesting.
1 Trump says Pence can stop the election process
2 MAGA types threaten Pence (and by proxy family, who were reportedly with him).
3 Journalists points out even acting Presidents get lifetime security
4 Pence reconsiders 25th amendment (and possibly hero status from swinging voters and non-Trump Republicans going into next Presidential election).Don't quite follow your logic, but think he'd get a bigger lift from"hero status" for standing up for the rule of law rather than appealing to the Trumpist nutjobs.
You are right, you misunderstand me.
Trumpists blame Pence to the point of threatening him. Plus Trump allegedly did not check in on his VP's safety during the 'storming' so Pence may no longer feel very loyal to Trump and reports are that he himself has Presidential ambitions.
If a VP enacts the 25th amendment, as a replacement/acting President, he gets all the perks on leaving office including lifetime security.
Thanks to Trump saying Pence can save him (i.e. stop or postpone the ballots), Pence has now lost the Trump extreme base (who blame him for choosing/allowing Biden to take up office), but if the Republicans manage to get rid of Trump's influence it may not be a big problem in 2024 as Pence may snare some wavering Democrat/swinging voters even if he lost the Trump MAGA types.
Yes to many moderates/leftists, Pence is a fairly extreme religious type but they weren't likely to vote for him anyway, and if he 'saves' the USA/Republications from Trump, he may pick up bonus points (extra votes).
Is that clearer? -
@canefan said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@booboo said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Really?
His poll numbers were pretty good until Covid.
A fair and plausible assessment. To be fair up to that point the dems weren't exactly moving the needle on their own. I can't remember if they got a bounce once Biden was confirmed as the dems candidate or not. Could Biden have stood up to 3 live debates and the rigours of a proper nationwide campaign? I'm not convinced but we will never know
Too right, then again I think many of us misunderestimated Biden. He looked dead and buried against the other Democrat contenders yet suddenly stormed home, and gave some better speeches recently than I thought he would. But I also underestimated Pence. I don't think I'd like him personally, or have much in common, but he has managed to stay the course (as he allegedly whispered to others) for four years and is a much better debater than I expected (others knew this, I didn't). Then again, I don't really see how these religious types/fundamentalists put up with/even like Trump. Millionaires and dictators, yup I can see the appeal.
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@nostrildamus @booboo On the Pence thing, whilst it certainly looks like he’s lost the MAGA crowd, come 2024 if he’s the GOP candidate what are the options for those disenfranchised Trumpists? Vote Dem or just not vote I guess. I wonder how many might come round to putting their cross against Pence as the lesser evil.
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@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@booboo said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus said in US Politics:
@voodoo it's a bit confusing for me now as threads have different posters contribute.
Fine, you think it is fair. I am glad you have a different opinion to me. And I am happy to disclose I may have an auto-bias against Sheridan. I am sure I enjoyed his foreign politics articles some years ago (or, perhaps I am turning into a dangerous socialist, perhaps even a neo-Hegelian).
I still think he uses crummy rhetorical devices and could have been more insightful.
I am overly interested in Trump because his PR/crowd control is totally unorthodox and verges on brilliance but in most other aspects he seems, IMO, to be inept. Particularly in who he hires. He may well be undone by that Trump junior video and Trump apparently wearing a boxing glove, Trump also had an amazing ability to avoid personal punishment but his love of being foremost/a celebrity keeps bumping up against his Stainless Steel Rat-like capacity to avoid accountability.Foreign affairs: in my humble opinion, the US has been close to nuclear war, and lost its importance with major allies and dumped others (the Kurds), something a traditional conservative government would never do. I grant the issues with China are complex and far-reaching, but I personally think the US has lost its standing and influence internationally. You may well disagree, your right. I'd be interested in what you think the major triumphs, are, I am sure there are some.
And yes it would be great to have a good conservative viewpoint to read, happy to take suggestions.
Hey
I totally agree with the first half of your post, and don't violently disagree with the 2nd.
I do think some credit is due for holding China to account, and for the middle east deals. Maybe both things are fleeting, but still. The tax cuts at home were welcome, as was cutting a lot of red tape. I thinknhe was right to get Europe to pull its weight more under NATO, though I agree with you that they gave up the role of international police which was disappointing.
But don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no fan of his. I'm just trying to look past my own bias to see if there were things he did that we can actually agree were good.
And I think there were. A few. But thats not to say that on balance I think he was a disaster for numerous reasons, and he remains a horrible human.
For the record, I'm very middle ground policitically. I've voted both ways here in Oz, am pretty centrist. Right on economics, often left on social issues.
Seems easier to be a swinger here in Oz than in the USA...😎
Grotesque man, but his foreign policy record is miles better than Obama.
Did much good for US economy.
And, whatever people like to tell themselves, would have walked a second term but for Covid.
Really?
His poll numbers were pretty good until Covid.
Weren’t Hillary’s poll numbers quite good until she lost?
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@nostrildamus @booboo On the Pence thing, whilst it certainly looks like he’s lost the MAGA crowd, come 2024 if he’s the GOP candidate what are the options for those disenfranchised Trumpists? Vote Dem or just not vote I guess. I wonder how many might come round to putting their cross against Pence as the lesser evil.
Not if Trump has anything to do with it, whatever his platform is by then. His followers love him, what would it take for them to abandon him?
US Politics