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@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@no-quarter this is why I find it so interesting. It’s seems the feelings of 1-2% of are greater than the safety of 50%.
Since when did physical health pale in comparison to mental.
It can't be that high a number.
Just ask yourself how many people do you know, and how many are even gay, let alone how many are trans.
Yeah, I've kind of messed up here. 1.5-2% of the population are LGBT. I've sort of just lumped them together there as those most likely to suffer mental health issues with this.
100% definitely a transphobic thing to do, I'm sure. Oops.
I've decided I'm definitely transphobic as I'm scared for those that transition .
Hate me.
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@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
Yeah, I've kind of messed up here. 1.5-2% of the population are LGBT.
Depends who you believe. The stats are quite, let's say, fluid:
Surveys in Western cultures find, on average, that about 93% of men and 87% of women identify as completely heterosexual, 4% of men and 10% of women as mostly heterosexual, 0.5% of men and 1% of women as evenly bisexual, 0.5% of men and 0.5% of women as mostly homosexual, and 2% of men and 0.5% of women as completely homosexual.[1] An analysis of 67 studies found that the lifetime prevalence of sex between men (regardless of orientation) was 3-5% for East Asia, 6-12% for South and South East Asia, 6-15% for Eastern Europe, and 6-20% for Latin America.[4] The International HIV/AIDS Alliance estimates a worldwide prevalence of men who have sex with men between 3 and 16%.[5]
Transphobic is a stupid word, as is homophobic really. 'phobic means an extreme or irrational fear of something. It isn't fear surely, if people don't like others that are LGBTDCY it doesn't mean that they are scared of them. I do know a few older people who are uncomfortable around the alphabet types but I certainly wouldn't call it fear. Stupid, yes.
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For those interested in the topic, particularly with Laurel Hubbard about to go and make a farce of the women's Olympic weight lifting, this is a really good place to start
It is worth looking up Colin Wright and Emma Hilton on this subject - they both do a great job of explaining the issue from a scientific viewpoint and dispelling the pseudo-science surrounding it.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
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- I'm no expert, but it's obvious that she should not be competing, given that she has a range of natural advantages which haven't been appropriately factored in to the ridiculous decision to allow trans people to compete;
- But given that they've made a ridiculous decision, good luck to her, the rules as they stand say she can compete and I'm sure it is her dream to win a medal
Edit: was missing the 'not' in point 1.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
Science says the opposite actually, 35 years of the benefits of being a male (larger size, quicker reactions, more strength and endurance). Those benefits are mostly retained and it makes a mockery of woman's sport.
I feel sorry for the biological woman that have to deal with this unfairness, and if they speak up get labelled as transphobic or a TERF.
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@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than the lowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear? -
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Tracey Lambrechs. You know Tracey, she gave up weightlifting and is on record saying how her and others were silenced about raising any objections.
Tracey Lambrechs is a New Zealand weightlifter who competes in the +75 kg division. She won a bronze medal at the 2014 Commonwealth Games and a silver at the 2015 Pacific Games. She placed 13th at the 2016 Olympics. Lambrechs was born in South Africa and moved to New Zealand in 1999.
Here she is talking openly to a media, despite the social media harm she is risking. I'd call that brave. Pretty much the opposite of your " just following orders" narrative.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than theowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear?Did transitioning make Hubbard shorter? Make his bones smaller? There have studies that show a significant amount of strength is retained.
The argument to me comes down to do you value woman’s sports? Allowing biological males to compete against females is fundamentally unfair and a farce.
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OK I will dial back a touch.
Scientists seem to disagree on whether earlier gains/advantages in some areas continue and how long testosterone reduction takes (if at all) to balance things out more.
Olympics are constantly reviewing the advice and rules based on studies. Considering that 'natural' female testosterone range is anywhere between 8 and 60 ng/dl you can see why it is difficult. That '60' woman surely has an unfair advantage over the '8' yet that's ok.
Consider this though, doctors do seem to agree that hormone therapy for men that reduces testosterone carries side effects of loss of bone density, decreased muscle mass and fatigue. Quite common side effects when treated for prostrate cancer. Again though these side effects don't happen in everyone and do so to differing degrees.Carry on with the white knighting though. I very much doubt that most male opinion on this topic is due to feeling sorry for women.
I'm not super comfortable that they have worked out the rules correctly but do feel that everyone should have the opportunity to compete so those current rules are what we have.
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@kirwan a sporting career of 4 am starts, arduous gym sessions daily, watching everything you eat, social sacrifices, all in pursuit of a strong internal goal. Then bob the builder comes along and makes a mockery of your life's work.
Which girls are you going to sign up for that?
We must have more girls in sport, yeah right.
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@crucial oh fuck off with your white knight comments.
I have a daughter who is very sporty and that is just one reason I value woman’s sports. Allowing men to compete against woman’s is ridiculous to anybody with a working brain (who hasn’t swallowed the kool aid of the woke left)
Nothing stopping Hubbard competing against men. If he’s so desperate for sport. If memory serves, he was pretty average before transitioning.
Kind of reminds me of Adam Sandler playing dodgeball against kids. Quite the achievement.
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@siam said in Trans weight lifter:
@kirwan a sporting career of 4 am starts, arduous gym sessions daily, watching everything you eat, social sacrifices, all in pursuit of a strong internal goal. Then bob the builder comes along and makes a mockery of your life's work.
Which girls are you going to sign up for that?
We must have more girls in sport, yeah right.
Not mention that sports like rugby and MMA it’ll put woman at real risk of injury.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
Carry on with the white knighting though. I very much doubt that most male opinion on this topic is due to feeling sorry for women.
Jesus man. Are you serious? You think this is simply an opportunity to trans bash?
I have 2 ladyboys in my family and our deceased best friend was what you call transgender. The nephews are hilarious and kind and we're proud of them all. -
So a male weightlifter who never gets anywhere in world comps transitions to a female and suddenly smashes a host of records and gets a silver medal at the world championships in his/her late 30. A late developer perhaps? Anyone who doesn’t think a biological male athlete who transitions at adulthood doesn’t have an advantage over natural born females has rocks in their head. Or, like a good fellow traveller, they’re just parroting what the acceptable opinion is for their side at this point in time.
Can you imagine what would have happened if they allowed this during the Cold War? Hilde Schitt (formerly Helmut) or Kirsten Kunz (formerly Karsten) alone would have won more medals than the entire free world.
Science my arse.
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Transgender debate, in sport, in general