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@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than the lowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear? -
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Tracey Lambrechs. You know Tracey, she gave up weightlifting and is on record saying how her and others were silenced about raising any objections.
Tracey Lambrechs is a New Zealand weightlifter who competes in the +75 kg division. She won a bronze medal at the 2014 Commonwealth Games and a silver at the 2015 Pacific Games. She placed 13th at the 2016 Olympics. Lambrechs was born in South Africa and moved to New Zealand in 1999.
Here she is talking openly to a media, despite the social media harm she is risking. I'd call that brave. Pretty much the opposite of your " just following orders" narrative.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than theowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear?Did transitioning make Hubbard shorter? Make his bones smaller? There have studies that show a significant amount of strength is retained.
The argument to me comes down to do you value woman’s sports? Allowing biological males to compete against females is fundamentally unfair and a farce.
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OK I will dial back a touch.
Scientists seem to disagree on whether earlier gains/advantages in some areas continue and how long testosterone reduction takes (if at all) to balance things out more.
Olympics are constantly reviewing the advice and rules based on studies. Considering that 'natural' female testosterone range is anywhere between 8 and 60 ng/dl you can see why it is difficult. That '60' woman surely has an unfair advantage over the '8' yet that's ok.
Consider this though, doctors do seem to agree that hormone therapy for men that reduces testosterone carries side effects of loss of bone density, decreased muscle mass and fatigue. Quite common side effects when treated for prostrate cancer. Again though these side effects don't happen in everyone and do so to differing degrees.Carry on with the white knighting though. I very much doubt that most male opinion on this topic is due to feeling sorry for women.
I'm not super comfortable that they have worked out the rules correctly but do feel that everyone should have the opportunity to compete so those current rules are what we have.
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@kirwan a sporting career of 4 am starts, arduous gym sessions daily, watching everything you eat, social sacrifices, all in pursuit of a strong internal goal. Then bob the builder comes along and makes a mockery of your life's work.
Which girls are you going to sign up for that?
We must have more girls in sport, yeah right.
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@crucial oh fuck off with your white knight comments.
I have a daughter who is very sporty and that is just one reason I value woman’s sports. Allowing men to compete against woman’s is ridiculous to anybody with a working brain (who hasn’t swallowed the kool aid of the woke left)
Nothing stopping Hubbard competing against men. If he’s so desperate for sport. If memory serves, he was pretty average before transitioning.
Kind of reminds me of Adam Sandler playing dodgeball against kids. Quite the achievement.
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@siam said in Trans weight lifter:
@kirwan a sporting career of 4 am starts, arduous gym sessions daily, watching everything you eat, social sacrifices, all in pursuit of a strong internal goal. Then bob the builder comes along and makes a mockery of your life's work.
Which girls are you going to sign up for that?
We must have more girls in sport, yeah right.
Not mention that sports like rugby and MMA it’ll put woman at real risk of injury.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
Carry on with the white knighting though. I very much doubt that most male opinion on this topic is due to feeling sorry for women.
Jesus man. Are you serious? You think this is simply an opportunity to trans bash?
I have 2 ladyboys in my family and our deceased best friend was what you call transgender. The nephews are hilarious and kind and we're proud of them all. -
So a male weightlifter who never gets anywhere in world comps transitions to a female and suddenly smashes a host of records and gets a silver medal at the world championships in his/her late 30. A late developer perhaps? Anyone who doesn’t think a biological male athlete who transitions at adulthood doesn’t have an advantage over natural born females has rocks in their head. Or, like a good fellow traveller, they’re just parroting what the acceptable opinion is for their side at this point in time.
Can you imagine what would have happened if they allowed this during the Cold War? Hilde Schitt (formerly Helmut) or Kirsten Kunz (formerly Karsten) alone would have won more medals than the entire free world.
Science my arse.
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Google Renee Richards. I’m sure it’s perfectly normal for a woman to enter the professional ranks aged 42 and get to number 20 in the world.
She said this herself:
Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion.“What a transphobe.
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It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
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@kirwan said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial oh fuck off with your white knight comments.
I have a daughter who is very sporty and that is just one reason I value woman’s sports. Allowing men to compete against woman’s is ridiculous to anybody with a working brain (who hasn’t swallowed the kool aid of the woke left)
No kool aid needed. I valued a person going about their life under the rules set in front of them way before someone coined the term woke for opinions that differed with their own.
I have already stated that I am not entirely comfortable that the IOC have worked out those rules correctly but I not going to wish misfortune on someone for following them (as was the comment that kicked this off)
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Transgender debate, in sport, in general