Electric Vehicles
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@snowy said in Electric Vehicles:
@nostrildamus said in Electric Vehicles:
@nta yes I am also now thinking will the govt let me buy an electric car that carries 1000 kilos (does towing count?) and writing it off as a trade vehicle
Good article. EVs have reputation for being shit at towing due to the range reduction but a lot of that is the old "range anxiety" of ICE owners. Tesla made a point of it with the Model X marketing that it could tow successfully. Given the weight of EVs and the weight distribution between the vehicle and the trailer, they should actually tow really well (range issues aside).
yes that article hints quite strongly they could perform better-higher torque and lower centre of gravity and more weight suggests to me they don't get pulled so jerkily as a higher, lighter ICE car.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
@snowy additionally, nobody talks fuel efficiency of ICEV towing. The range of a petrol or diesel vehicle is drastically affected by load in the same way as EV.
I'm torn regards diesel. Much more comfortable drive in the hilly (NZ) countryside, great engines but crap fuel...(for the environment and health).
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
@snowy additionally, nobody talks fuel efficiency of ICEV towing. The range of a petrol or diesel vehicle is drastically affected by load in the same way as EV.
Modern engines it’s nowhere near as bad as I thought. Old man has a petrol Highlander. Rock solid 9l/100k. Rises to 11 towing the boat.
So if electric is also 20% ish range reduction then that’s still strong given most are 2-300 miles these days.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
@snowy additionally, nobody talks fuel efficiency of ICEV towing. The range of a petrol or diesel vehicle is drastically affected by load in the same way as EV.
For sure. If I tow my digger around on the trailer fuel consumption goes up considerably behind the diesel hilux. If I tow the same trailer over a longer distance with the V8 car it isn't so noticeable.
Range anxiety isn't a thing when people can just pull over and fill up though.
E.G. If I was to tow my boat down to the bach with an EV I think that I would need 3 half hour stops to recharge and add 30% to the time traveling. So it is an issue depending on what you are doing. -
@majorrage said in Electric Vehicles:
So if electric is also 20% ish range reduction then that’s still strong given most are 2-300 miles these days.
Sadly it is likely to be more like half to a third of the range.
https://www.aa.co.nz/cars/motoring-blog/is-towing-under-threat-with-electric-vehicles/
Over our short 35km journey, we calculated a 17% drop in battery range. That’s three times faster than standard, essentially reducing a complete charge from 565km to less than 200km…
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@snowy said in Electric Vehicles:
Range anxiety isn't a thing when people can just pull over and fill up though.
Improved charging infrastructure needs a critical mass of EVs to justify it.
EVs need a critical mass of infrastructure to justify them.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
@snowy said in Electric Vehicles:
Range anxiety isn't a thing when people can just pull over and fill up though.
Improved charging infrastructure needs a critical mass of EVs to justify it.
EVs need a critical mass of infrastructure to justify them.
Yep, and it is happening too, albeit a bit slower than I would have liked.
It doesn't change anything in my example above though, where my 4.5 hour trip would become over 6 hours (actually nearer 7 as things are, because I would have to change route to charge) it isn't viable. I either accept that I can't take the jet boat down to the river or I keep an ICE to do it and add to an already large fleet of cars by getting an EV.
The good news is the work on the battery tech to take superfast charges, not much more than 5 minutes. From memory BP are even getting involved as they have thousands of petrol forecourts that could still work for them. Read that in a NZ motor trade magazine, was really interesting but I can't find an online version unfortunately.
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@snowy speed of charging advances will be huge. Car builders supporting it will be huge-r.
Over our short 35km journey, we calculated a 17% drop in battery range.
That is pretty poor data set to base any analysis on, TBH. I'd be keen to see what other models are doing in terms of efficiency - there are some manufacturers going all out on the towing thing because they know it'll matter.
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@nta - building from the left coast, WA are putting in around 2000 miles highway coverage for EV charging infrastructure.
Should get those caravan-towing electric gray nomads close to the NT border.
Start small at
Just need another 10,000 miles more for the golden spike.
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@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
That is pretty poor data set to base any analysis on, TBH.
Agreed, but I did quite a bit of googling about it, because I really would like an EV that has decent range towing. Not a lot of info out there as far as decent stats go.
Oh, and yep, it really does matter for the reasons I mentioned above.
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@snowy said in Electric Vehicles:
@nta said in Electric Vehicles:
@snowy additionally, nobody talks fuel efficiency of ICEV towing. The range of a petrol or diesel vehicle is drastically affected by load in the same way as EV.
For sure. If I tow my digger around on the trailer fuel consumption goes up considerably behind the diesel hilux. If I tow the same trailer over a longer distance with the V8 car it isn't so noticeable.
Range anxiety isn't a thing when people can just pull over and fill up though.
E.G. If I was to tow my boat down to the bach with an EV I think that I would need 3 half hour stops to recharge and add 30% to the time traveling. So it is an issue depending on what you are doing.A digger, a V8, a boat and a batch. Can I be your friend?
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@crazy-horse 2 V8s, 2 Hilux, a tractor and an aeroplane. Years of accumulation. It is safe to say that they are all in the aged category. I want to add an EV but really need to get rid of some other things, just not sure what because although they are old their all function and have their uses, Some people are like that too.
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@jc said in NZ Politics:
@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@gt12 said in NZ Politics:
@tim said in NZ Politics:
How efficient is the move to electric cars in NZ? My parents don’t want to go near them because their electricity bill is already hundreds of dollars, but I cant bothered running the numbers. Anyway know of a source that breaks it down for those doing most of their charging off the grid?
no specific source, but it's about a fifth or less of the cost of running it off petrol. Less again if you have solar. And maintenance is massively cheaper - have some friends with Nissan Leafs, and in a few years they have changed windscreen wiper fluid and tyres ... and that's about it
Are we comparing apples with apples here? If the context is cars within scope for the feebate scheme then it applies to cars new to the market doesn't it? If we assume that those in the market for a used import are generally spending less than the cost of an EV, then the other cars new to the market are in fact new cars. Maintenance is negligible on most new cars, with warranties and inclusive service plans of 3 years or more being pretty standard now.
In fact one of the most inequitable parts of the car market is that those not in a position to buy a new car are the people most likely to have the highest running costs. They also run cars that are less reliable, less safe and more polluting, but that's another story.
Maybe the government could help encourage those people into more modern vehicles...
I think that you know all this, but first question, yes it is for new cars to the market, and they capped it at $80k I think. There are fuck all EVs available for that (yet) that I would want to own but might be tempted now.
As for the maintenance cost, over a minimum of a 10 year life time of a vehicle it is hugely reduced with an EV. Over 3 years you would be correct I think. They have something like one tenth of the moving parts, so I'm probably being conservative long term. Even brake pads last forever - hopefully I don't need to explain that to anyone.
Yes we could try and get some of the old inefficient models off the road but as has been mentioned we need a second hand market for this to work as well. That will take a bit of time.
I do not like the sound of the new petrol car "tax". That is just daft. More fuel efficient cars on the road seems sensible for people that can't afford an EV.
All seems a bit rushed and not very well thought out.
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@snowy Is an EV still a low maintenance vehicle at the end of that 10 year period? For example by that stage what is the likelihood of a $20k Leaf needing a new battery, and what’s the cost of that? I took a look at this site
and it’s suggesting that swapping a 55% capacity battery for an 85% one will cost you 10 and a half grand. I suspect that a 2011 NZ new Corolla with 80k on it is still pretty near bulletproof for about the same net cost. And nobody ever got range anxiety in a Corolla!
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@jc said in NZ Politics:
@snowy Is an EV still a low maintenance vehicle at the end of that 10 year period? For example by that stage what is the likelihood of a $20k Leaf needing a new battery, and what’s the cost of that? I took a look at this site
and it’s suggesting that swapping a 55% capacity battery for an 85% one will cost you 10 and a half grand. I suspect that a 2011 NZ new Corolla with 80k on it is still pretty near bulletproof for about the same net cost. And nobody ever got range anxiety in a Corolla!
Current tech? It's still a yes in terms of running costs over the life of the car and a leaf is a poor example which is why the cap at $80k is stupid.
As for the Corolla, ave KMs for men 12,000 per year, women 8,000 so if we call it 10k that corolla has done 100k and will need a cam belt for starters. Probably brake pads, maybe discs. Compression will be down, efficiency waning. Just like the electric one but in the meantime you haven't bought petrol.
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@snowy Oh I don't doubt the Corolla would have need some work, but a cam belt is what, 500 bucks? If you do the brakes another couple of hundred then you're good to go for another 100k. Whereas the Leaf is effectively rooted unless you spend the cost of the Corolla on a new battery.
Mods: should we move this to the EV thread?
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@jc said in NZ Politics:
@snowy Oh I don't doubt the Corolla would have need some work, but a cam belt is what, 500 bucks? If you do the brakes another couple of hundred then you're good to go for another 100k. Whereas the Leaf is effectively rooted unless you spend the cost of the Corolla on a new battery.
Mods: should we move this to the EV thread?
Yes it probably should be moved.
I also get what you are saying but I wouldn't drive a Leaf, it would be less embarrassing, getting out of a sheep.
However the lack of maintenance over the period of time as well as the fuel does make them viable. Buy some solar panels and it's pretty good. My father (accountant) ran a spreadsheet on all of his vehicle expenses. He doesn't bother since he bought the eTron. There are none so far. Doesn't have to drive anywhere to get it serviced, borrow a car, none of that shit.
I know that you are going to say what about in 10 years? The battery should do better than that and his ROI will be around 10% he reckons. That is why he spent the money, even %5 is difficult to achieve these days of low interest rates so as an investment it does add up. That's on a really expensive car too. Not the Corolla versing Leaf comparison.
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So once again the government proves itself to be economically illiterate:
It's sophomore-level economics to understand that subsidising demand has the effect of increasing prices. The Minister's response is that they are going to keep an eye on attempts to distort the market and "call it out". That will have the overseas sellers quaking in their boots I'm sure.
At an aggregate level there is effectively a single source for the in-scope EVs, i.e. the Japanese second-hand car market. That market already monopolises the affordable EV supply and the government has enacted policies which make it the preferred source for the entire future car stock. Of course the sellers will take advantage of their position, that's the way markets work.
This is breathtakingly amateur.
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@jc said in Electric Vehicles:
So once again the government proves itself to be economically illiterate:
It's sophomore-level economics to understand that subsidising demand has the effect of increasing prices. The Minister's response is that they are going to keep an eye on attempts to distort the market and "call it out". That will have the overseas sellers quaking in their boots I'm sure.
At an aggregate level there is effectively a single source for the in-scope EVs, i.e. the Japanese second-hand car market. That market already monopolises the affordable EV supply and the government has enacted policies which make it the preferred source for the entire future car stock. Of course the sellers will take advantage of their position, that's the way markets work.
This is breathtakingly amateur.
Not unusual though. In a way you could argue that any drive (sic) toward this market will have that effect so the subsidy is a compensation rather than an incentive.
Govts around the world are trying to work this one out. How to shift people to 'cleaner' cars. Politically you can't ban existing vehicles and will have the massive headache of what to do with them and how to compensate people. Encouraging consumers through subsidies will get a bit of traction and I guess that they are crossing fingers that if petrol vehicles become undesirable (off the showroom floor) the market will need to increase and therefore become competitive.
At the moment the problem is the lack of market supply.
The flipside (and also against the aims) is that the clearance of fossil fuel vehicles will drive their prices down and make them a cheap option.