Coronavirus - UK
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage nah, you win. This isn't a debate about making a situation better, it's a debate that you're right and your wishes override another person's decision about what to put into their own body.
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I'm simply saying people are making selfish, and on the back of all the research/commentary about the safety of vaccines, and stupid decisions.
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage as I said, I understand your position but calling people stupid or any perjoratives is an exercise in futility. It's just something you do to make yourself feel superior. No one is under any obligation to give a fuck what you think. You simply have no authority or a positive effect.
Not wanting to get into a you're right and I'm wrong debate here.
I take your point about pejoratives, but seems to me that after all the efforts made to dispel concerns, it's a pretty reasonable argument to make that people knowingly and deliberately risking their lives and others are stupid and selfish and should be called out for it.
Particularly when the virus they are refusing to get vaccinated against has killed north of 120k people.
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered. Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
Particularly when the virus they are refusing to get vaccinated for has been successfully countered by 99% of natural immune systems.
I know mate. You don't see a drastic risk in motorcycling and I don't see a drastic risk in covid. That's all the difference is.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
The only thing I think when I see that is - aren't others getting vaccinated anyway and won't get sick? If they're infecting others, aren't those just others that didn't get vaccinated also? Or am I being dim as usual.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
You don't see a drastic risk in motorcycling and I don't see a drastic risk in covid. That's all the difference is.
You didn't think of ANY of the ways where this comparison would be laughed at?
And @Victor-Meldrew & @MajorRage - come on guys, you see there's no point in debating this. You're using logic vs a religion. When has that ever worked?
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@bones said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Nobody wins when people don't get vaccinated, get sick and then infect others.
The only thing I think when I see that is - aren't others getting vaccinated anyway and won't get sick? If they're infecting others, aren't those just others that didn't get vaccinated also? Or am I being dim as usual.
Correct. And there goes the NHS getting overwhelmed again.
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@kruse said in Coronavirus - UK:
You didn't think of ANY of the ways where this comparison would be laughed at?
I'm offering a conciliatory gesture to a ferner i respect. We (me and vic) can go round and round for ever but at the end we simply disagree on what constitutes "life threatening" in our two different lives.
I'd much prefer to do that than toss out snide remarks from the sideline
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@majorrage genuinely rage, and not related to our views on the virus lethality.
After a year of incredible prioritisation of the NHS, when is the time you ask "is this nhs actually any good?". It seems awfully not up to the task of delivering health and improving lives of the people because for the last year it's been the people delivering health and improving life of the NHS.After a year, the much vaunted NHS has looked pretty fragile at every juncture.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered.
And they don't are about the 120k+ who have died?
Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
They're not risking their own lives - but they are risking the lives of others.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@majorrage genuinely rage, and not related to our views on the virus lethality.
Honestly, UK & Aus based TSF'ers are naturally going to have a huge difference in their views on this compared to European based.
After a year of incredible prioritisation of the NHS, when is the time you ask "is this nhs actually any good?". It seems awfully not up to the task of delivering health and improving lives for the people because for the last year it's been the people delivering health and improving life for the NHS.
After a year, the much vaunted NHS has looked pretty fragile.
Depends on who you ask and what their politics are.
I think as completely free healthcare goes, it's pretty damn good. It's far from perfect, and there are loads of ways it could be improved. But it is a government run organisation, which means it's political as all hell, has a huge excess of non-line staff & is extremely reliant on immigrants to do the lesser paid jobs (which sadly includes some front line staff). It's also put on such a pedestal by many commentators that it's considered unpatriotic to criticise it.
If you compare the results of the NHS in dealing with pandemic to most of our European neighbours, it falls in line. It's certainly fragile, and the waiting lists now for operations are excessively long. I think the way the NHS really works is that if you have small issues which require medication, or the worst possible things (Cancer etc), then it's very good. But middle of the road healthcare (sports injuries, dodgy knees etc) then it's quite poor.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@kruse ok, do I insist my 18 month old nephew gets vaccinated? Is that logic or religion?
The science does not indicate vaccination for an 18 month old. I don't see what point you are trying to make
Why not?
I'm making the point that "the science" ( amazing that we think there is only one science) is not as clear cut as people are reducing it too. There are many questions, but you're the first I've encountered with answers
What about his 8 year old brother? What is the vaccine cut off and why is it that age?
What about pregnant women?
Genuine questions if you know the answers👍
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@kruse ok, do I insist my 18 month old nephew gets vaccinated? Is that logic or religion?
The science does not indicate vaccination for an 18 month old. I don't see what point you are trying to make
Why not?
I'm making the point that "the science" ( amazing that we think there is only one science) is not as clear cut as people are reducing it too. There are many questions, but you're the first I've encountered with answers
What about his 8 year old brother? What is the vaccine cut off and why is it that age?
What about pregnant women?
Genuine questions if you know the answers👍
The science does not indicate vaccination for children period. In NZ vaccination for pregnant women is not contraindicated. Apparently vaccination for children ad young as 12 is fine, in line with many vaccinations. But in NZ its 16 and over. Probably supply related and relative risk
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Maybe their pertinent statistic is 4.3 million who have recovered.
And they don't are about the 120k+ who have died?
Maybe they aren't in the at risk group for age and physical health. I don't agree that they think they are risking their lives at all.
They're not risking their own lives - but they are risking the lives of others.
Devils advocate to parse out a point:
We know that the biggest risk to death by covid, other than age, is obesity, yes? If no, I'll stop here.We know that very generally speaking, healthy under 60s don't die from covid?
Why is it encumbant on me to put something unwanted in my body to save someone who put lots of crap into theirs? Where does my chain of responsibility end, and theirs begin?
(Again, just playing here mate - trying to get a robust philosophy)
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
We know that very generally speaking, healthy under 60s don't die from covid?
Why is it encumbant on me to put something unwanted in my body to save someone who put lots of crap into theirs? Where does my chain of responsibility end, and theirs begin?Probably something to do with externalities. You can't catch Fat Bastard from them, but they can catch Covid from you. Possibly some sort of analogy with the way second hand smoke has been targeted over the last 20 years.
Even for someone with lower risk factors, other considerations being that it may be wise to get vaccinated to avoid (a) getting sick, (b) the possibility of being a statistical outlier and getting hammered by it, (c) giving the virus fewer chances to mutate into something nastier, and/or (d) your immune system being prepared if and when one of these mutations does appear locally, or a future Covid mutation gets stronger again.
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Kind of side note as children have been mentioned. From reports a child in my daughter's school fell ill rapidly friday and is now is on a ventilator (covid positive) , that year group are isolating now. Coincidentally my child woke up with a hacking continuous cough yesterday morning which disappeared as quickly as it appeared, her test result came back negative just short of 24hrsthis morning and she's gone in late to school happy as larry.
LOTS of kids off today apparently.My little say on all this is...
- I'm extremely grateful to have the health service we have, we've continuously developed and i truly believe that where we fell short to start with we've pulled it around.
- I get a bit peeved about the focus purely on at risk not at risk, yes we know what data is showing and who are more at risk and these are the people that overwhelm the system. But unfortunately underlying health conditions aren't always obvious and i suspect the child I mentioned is one of those. Which brings me back to having everyone play their part and get vaccinated, it's a team effort because people will suffer and it won't always be the obvious "at risk" groups everyone assumes has been vaccinated.
I highly recommend the jab, I definitely feel like I've been upgraded since my second dose of microchip. 😉
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@r-l I'm definitely pro vax. Don't have a lot of time for the idea that individuals have a choice. It's selfish, pure and simple IMHO
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Awesome responses.
So, can herd immunity be reached by enough of a majority in England that, to Bones's point, the stupid and selfish (BAME people your words not mine😉😛) folks are no longer a threat? Assuming once vaccinated you're all good spreading and contracting wise.
Would that be a reasonable situation or are the numbers of people not wanting a vaccination currently too high.In short, will Britain need to punish non vaxers?