Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror
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@nzzp said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Turned over to the late night news, which was showing live pictures of a fire in one of the towers. I knew fuck all about New York but it was a big building and a big fire. Looked awful. Called in the to-be-wife, and we sat together just as the second plane hit. Thought WW3 was about to start.
What happened was a goddamn tragedy, and utterly unacceptable. That said, the genius was the second plane. No-one saw the first plane; it happened, and people were dealing with that. That got the eyes of the world on the second tower, and those indelible images of tragedy.
The terrorists achieved what they wanted - which was terror. One plane probably doesn't have nearly the same visceral impact
Can't believe it was 20 years already
the whole plan is staggering in its scale and execution
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Okay I was starting to think this was a US sob story/ jerk off
But Ep 3 has put that to rest
Cheney getting a kicking
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@mariner4life said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Okay I was starting to think this was a US sob story/ jerk off
But Ep 3 has put that to rest
Cheney getting a kicking
Lots of them are. Continuing into ep4 I might add.
Bureaucracy, eh?
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@mariner4life said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nzzp said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Turned over to the late night news, which was showing live pictures of a fire in one of the towers. I knew fuck all about New York but it was a big building and a big fire. Looked awful. Called in the to-be-wife, and we sat together just as the second plane hit. Thought WW3 was about to start.
What happened was a goddamn tragedy, and utterly unacceptable. That said, the genius was the second plane. No-one saw the first plane; it happened, and people were dealing with that. That got the eyes of the world on the second tower, and those indelible images of tragedy.
The terrorists achieved what they wanted - which was terror. One plane probably doesn't have nearly the same visceral impact
Can't believe it was 20 years already
the whole plan is staggering in its scale and execution
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Still mind-blowing
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Has anyone else watched 9/11: Inside the President’s War Room? It’s on Apple TV. I remember at the time we all though George W Bush was a complete idiot. The Michael Moore film reinforced the idea that he was an indecisive fool talking to kids while America was attacked and didn’t have a clue what he was supposed to do.
Now I know the narrative of a doco like this is going to be skewed towards the participants as a condition of their agreeing to be filmed but still I’m surprised at how well George W comes across. I had no idea that the lousy comms they had meant that effectively Dick Cheney was in charge because he was still in Washington. The President’s phone line kept dropping out and while most real time info was coming from the TV news crews on the spot Air Force One didn’t have satellite TV so they only got intermittent signal as they passed over large towns. Although Bush wanted to get back to Washington he was effectively overridden by the Secret Service. They also, due to a miscommunication, believed AF1 was an active target but still it was nearly an hour before fighter cover arrived.
The most striking thing was the gap between what I assumed was the level of communication and control sophistication available to the President at the time compared with what they actually had. They had to move most of the people out of the Situation Room because people were getting ill and they realised they were running out of oxygen for Christ’s sake.
Anyway it’s worth a watch.
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@jc yep, it’s a great doc and W comes across extremely well.
It’s another eye opener into how much I’ve been sucked into a democratic loving media over the years. He comes across articulate, smart and really on top of the situation.
The lack of tech is really eye opening. Kind of blows some of the spiels you hear about AF1 in movies etc.
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@jc that is almost comedic, I haven't had a watch yet but it is staggering that the comms where so shitty. Not to mention running out of O2 ffs! But I guess you don't want to share that and out the gaps in your capability. It was truly a different world back then.
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@junior said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Aided to a minor degree by the dick-swinging going on in America's 18 security agencies.
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@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
It’s another eye opener into how much I’ve been sucked into a democratic loving media over the years. He comes across articulate, smart and really on top of the situation.
Compare the criticism of his slip with "misunderestimated" and "Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again." to how "Sleepy" Joe Biden is portrayed whenever he fucks up.
Very few idiots make it to President, I'd guess. But none of us are perfect.
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@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@junior said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Aided to a minor degree by the dick-swinging going on in America's 18 security agencies.
It is frightening how badly their agencies seem to work together
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@canefan said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@junior said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Aided to a minor degree by the dick-swinging going on in America's 18 security agencies.
It is frightening how badly their agencies seem to work together
The problem with political appointments is that the people you appoint may be political. The USA hasn’t operated a meritocracy for a very long time.
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@jc said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@canefan said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@junior said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Aided to a minor degree by the dick-swinging going on in America's 18 security agencies.
It is frightening how badly their agencies seem to work together
The problem with political appointments is that the people you appoint may be political. The USA hasn’t operated a meritocracy for a very long time.
Too busy point scoring to work for the greater good? They just don't seem to trust one another with intel, or don't think to pass on intel. Crazy
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Finished it. Man the frustration I felt at the sheer waste of it all.
You look back and think it would have been better if they'd simply sent in some highly covert specialists to clean house. Instead they just made things worse with almost every action. The US general at the end saying that there was all least some progress in Afghanistan... Borderline delusional. I don't think even he meant it.
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@jc said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@canefan said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@nta said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@junior said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
People always talk about the simplicity of the plan, but I am staggered at how many things had to go right not just for one plane to hit the tower, but for two planes and then a third into a fucking pentagon! Think about all the things that had to go right not just on the day with 19 hi-jackers but also in the years leading up to it with everyone else involved and the flying lessons etc.
Aided to a minor degree by the dick-swinging going on in America's 18 security agencies.
It is frightening how badly their agencies seem to work together
The problem with political appointments is that the people you appoint may be political. The USA hasn’t operated a meritocracy for a very long time.
Most (not all) of their departments of state are headed by presidential appointments who either resign or get fired by a new president. While that seems weird to us, it does avoid the political issue of previous appointees not properly implementing the president's policies (or at least removes that as an excuse). It also sort of makes sense in that the president is the Head of the Civil Service, and they bring their team with them.
Presidents still normally attempt to find competence and experience on their side of the aisle, particularly in the law and order positions (eg FBI, CIA, NSA, armed forces, Attorney-General). The civil service that actually does the work is also permanent public servants like here - in theory the president can fire almost any of them, but in practice they haven't got time for that on a large scale. Not that it happened then, but a modern issue is also the furlough due to scraps over the budget. Furlough = unpaid leave while the civil service waits for Congress to approve a budget. Not surprisingly, that causes talent holes as quality public servants can't be bothered with that, and move on.
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I finally made good on my intent to explore some of the human interest angles of 9/11. I recently finished The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11 by Garrett M. Graff. As with most things 9/11, it's a tough read, but even tougher to put the book down.