Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
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@broughie said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They should have focused on those at risk rather than controlling a healthy population.
The problem is that sounds OK but not in the real world. If you take that approach, you have to effectively long-term quarantine all at-risk sections of society like, say, the over-60's. and/or forcibly vaccinate them to protect them from Covid.
All to allow another section of society to live un-vaccinated and unrestricted lives.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
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@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
Covid19 is still a high trigger subject
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
Covid19 is still a high trigger subject
Isn’t it just ? So much spite and anger from all sides of the equation
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@voodoo yeah, agree. Well said. I think it's an endorsement to be able to stay home and work...
But, it may be difficult at scale.
I think it highlights that the blame game and persecutions will ruin all solutions.
It's also a reminder that personal safety is primarily and fundamentally the responsibility of the individual, (the father in this case), not the group.
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@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
Covid19 is still a high trigger subject
Isn’t it just ? So much spite and anger from all sides of the equation
Real life consequences. This is one of the greatest challenges to mankind in my lifetime
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
Covid19 is still a high trigger subject
Isn’t it just ? So much spite and anger from all sides of the equation
Real life consequences. This is one of the greatest challenges to mankind in my lifetime
These real life consequences you speak of are imposed by the government.
I'm double vaxxed and think everyone should be, but I don't see why it's acceptable to withdraw the right to participate in society from people who don't make the choice to protect themselves. That decision, and the resulting support from the community, has come from the government imposing that on the community and regular people feeling forced into reacting to that.
Happily (and ironically enough), where I live the government is simply not able to do that.
I believe the negative reaction to the idea that"people should just get vaxxed and we get our lives back, fuck these who don't get it" comes from people like me (double-vaxxed who agrees with the sentiment) because we also see that the rule was imposed on society.
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@gt12 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@mn5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They have a choice and they made it. They still get access to health care, they can go to the shops, they can drive. No one is making them wear a yellow star or anything. But don't expect all out compassion from the rest of us who also bear the consequences of their actions. There are things they can't do and at the moment that is the consequence of their choice. They should live with that happy to have a choice, and not ruin someone else's weekend by being inconsiderate fluffybunnies
Before I respond, are you talking about peope that aren't vaxxed, or the people causing disruption at kids cricket?
If the latter, you're at cross purposes, but as you were.
If the former, oh boo fucking hoo for you. We aren't talking about them complaining or asking for "compassion", we are talking about the vaxxed complaining that the unvaxxed are fucking it all up for them.
Well tell you what, how about you direct that ire at the Government where it belongs? Even with our ridiculously high vax rates us vaccinated still can't travel, still face uncertainty and constant rule changes - what makes you think anything would be different at 95% or 98%???
It was Brian Tamaki and his lot. That's all I need to know about the purity of their intentions. As for the other part of your argument, which you managed to shoe horn in? I agree we should be freer than we are
Wtf, I didn't shoehorn it in, I responded to MN5 who said the unvaxxed were fucking up life for everyone, and you responded over that
Oh, so in true fern style we are arguing about different things but probably agree about lots else
It does amuse me that my throwaway comment started it too.
Covid19 is still a high trigger subject
Isn’t it just ? So much spite and anger from all sides of the equation
Real life consequences. This is one of the greatest challenges to mankind in my lifetime
These real life consequences you speak of are imposed by the government.
I'm double vaxxed and think everyone should be, but I don't see why it's acceptable to withdraw the right to participate in society from people who don't make the choice to protect themselves. That decision, and the resulting support from the community, has come from the government imposing that on the community and regular people feeling forced into reacting to that.
Happily (and ironically enough), where I live the government is simply not able to do that.
I believe the negative reaction to the idea that"people should just get vaxxed and we get our lives back, fuck these who don't get it" comes from people like me (double-vaxxed who agrees with the sentiment) because we also see that the rule was imposed on society.
I was actually talking about general consequences of covid19. I have never seen death on this scale this fast down to one disease. Who knows how many more would have died if measures to limit spread, and medical advances hadn't intervened. The other stuff we have all argued back and forth over the issues, most of us have clear positions, not all in alignment.
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@broughie no way...these fluffybunnies are protesting freedom, yet denying these kids the right to play sport after 3 months of doing.jack shit, they can fuck right off...are they not supposedly fighting for the right of these kids to play sport or whatever?
It's fucking pathetic.
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@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
The local retailers weren''t the happiest with the protesters tactics either - from the CEO of the Newmarket Business Association:
Kicking people while they're down. Not cool
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@stodders said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders So will cold cases, as it’s winter. Why should we care again? Unless you’re claiming that people are being hospitalised and dying despite the vaccination rate being so high. Is that what you’re claiming?
No. I'm not claiming that. All I know is:
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The vaccines do not confer immunity or prevent transmission.
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Any beneficial effect the vaccines do have wears off, the vaccine manufacturers don’t know when.
-
Vaccines possibly don’t protect against new variants or mutations. Omicron testing will tell us more, but history suggests these types of virus are very difficult to vaccinate against.
-
Vaccines have unknown longterm side effects.
The vaccine rhetoric started with the position that vaccines were a two-shot ticket out of the pandemic.
Then this was amended to say that they stopped transmission in the vaccinated (that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated).
Now we're at the point where the vaccines don't stop transmission or infection but they reduce the impact of the disease if you're unlucky enough to get it (given the statistics of infection). But, here comes the caveat, this only applies if you continue to get boosters for an unspecified period into the future.
I don't like the demonisation of people who have chosen to not get the vaccine. And when you look at the above and see how often the goalposts keep getting moved (as a result of hard scientific evidence, but why come out with statements claiming outlandish benefits if you doubt they will stand the test of time), it becomes harder to argue with people that have doubts about the true efficacy of the vaccines.
Which is when you get to the stage of vaccine mandates/compelled medical intervention. And IMO, that is a place I thought we'd never get back to, which saddens me immensely.
Maybe true but it’s not what I asked you. You made a comment that “and yet virus transmission rate is increasing”. So long as we aren’t having excess deaths or overloaded ICUs why do we care what the transmission rate is?
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@siam said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
A while ago there was an anecdote about a fern co worker with a vulnerable child at home. The co worker wanted to know his colleagues vaccination status and request he be isolated at work from the unvaccinated.
Fair enough, I get that and his fear that an unvaccinated individual infects him and he passes that infection onto his immuno-compromised child. A potentially life threatening situation for his kid. I understand that he wants to take away that root cause. That sounds in line with the government messaging. No problem.
But what happens if a vaccinated co worker infects him and then he takes that home and his kid dies?
Who does he blame then? How does the current system ensure against that ghastly ( and highly plausible) situation?
I've been mulling that one for weeks.
I think our own ethical obligation is to do as much as we possibly can to not put at risk people who aren’t in a position to mitigate the risks. If me getting vaccinated makes it less likely that I catch and pass on an infection to my co-worker’s child, then I’m happy to do it. Sure, there is still a risk that I do exactly that even when I’m vaxxed, but if the worst happened at least I can look them in the eye and we both know I did all I could. I’m not sure I’d be able to do the same if I hadn’t got jabbed. That’s just being a decent human being. I think everybody should think like that.
But I don’t think it’s the state’s job to impose vaccination on people. They’ve made it available, for free, and mandated a vaxxed status for those workers whom the public has no legal choice to refuse interaction with, like police and prison officers. But that’s where it should end I think. The rest is up to us to be decent to one another.
It’s ironic that the PM’s mantra is to be kind, when she’s happy to enforce unkindness to get it.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
But I don’t think it’s the state’s job to impose vaccination on people. They’ve made it available, for free, and mandated a vaxxed status for those workers with whom the public has no legal choice to refuse interaction with, like police and prison officers. But that’s where it should end I think. The rest is up to us to be decent to one another.
Agree. I wouldn't mind so much if it was 2 shots and thats it. And then people got their freedoms back (to early 2020 levels). But its starting to look like no end of booster shots. And all sorts of controls even if people comply with all the rules (masks vaccines etc). I starting to worry it will never end. And this nightmare gets worse (the whole country in red). I don't fear COVID. Thats part of life. I fear living for good in a country like NZ has become. With no way out.
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@winger Yeah, I’m not caring about boosters. If they provide them I’ll take them. When the pandemic started everything looked pretty bleak and people my age had to take a deep breath and ask ourselves whether crashing the country’s way of life was worth it just to protect us from the inevitable. The answer was no.
I’m impressed and amazed that they’ve found something that gives me a much better than even chance of living with the virus TBH, and it makes no sense to turn it down. Boosters will be better than the alternative.
Now the government should get out of the way. They can’t protect us fully, so let us find our own equilibrium point. Thanks very much, but we’ll take it from here.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders So will cold cases, as it’s winter. Why should we care again? Unless you’re claiming that people are being hospitalised and dying despite the vaccination rate being so high. Is that what you’re claiming?
No. I'm not claiming that. All I know is:
-
The vaccines do not confer immunity or prevent transmission.
-
Any beneficial effect the vaccines do have wears off, the vaccine manufacturers don’t know when.
-
Vaccines possibly don’t protect against new variants or mutations. Omicron testing will tell us more, but history suggests these types of virus are very difficult to vaccinate against.
-
Vaccines have unknown longterm side effects.
The vaccine rhetoric started with the position that vaccines were a two-shot ticket out of the pandemic.
Then this was amended to say that they stopped transmission in the vaccinated (that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated).
Now we're at the point where the vaccines don't stop transmission or infection but they reduce the impact of the disease if you're unlucky enough to get it (given the statistics of infection). But, here comes the caveat, this only applies if you continue to get boosters for an unspecified period into the future.
I don't like the demonisation of people who have chosen to not get the vaccine. And when you look at the above and see how often the goalposts keep getting moved (as a result of hard scientific evidence, but why come out with statements claiming outlandish benefits if you doubt they will stand the test of time), it becomes harder to argue with people that have doubts about the true efficacy of the vaccines.
Which is when you get to the stage of vaccine mandates/compelled medical intervention. And IMO, that is a place I thought we'd never get back to, which saddens me immensely.
Maybe true but it’s not what I asked you. You made a comment that “and yet virus transmission rate is increasing”. So long as we aren’t having excess deaths or overloaded ICUs why do we care what the transmission rate is?
This is the question I'd like to see journalists continually ask government leaders and health officials every press conference over and over again.
Make the (endemic now) covid problem be ALL about hospitalisations and deaths and not about case numbers. Just like the flu and other endemic diseases.
Be honest and precise about who dies and suffers and by what age brackets and (yes) current health status.
Then we can lay off pressuring parents to use their kid's health as the tool for salvation, the illogical legislations, and lay off the paranoia about spreading a microscopic pathogen. A spread that we could never hope to eliminate, even at March 2020.
Treat this motherfucker like a nasty, but not necessarily fatal, seasonal flu.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@winger Yeah, I’m not caring about boosters. If they provide them I’ll take them. When the pandemic started everything looked pretty bleak and people my age had to take a deep breath and ask ourselves whether crashing the country’s way of life was worth it just to protect us from the inevitable. The answer was no.
I’m impressed and amazed that they’ve found something that gives me a much better than even chance of living with the virus TBH, and it makes no sense to turn it down. Boosters will be better than the alternative.
Now the government should get out of the way. They can’t protect us fully, so let us find our own equilibrium point. Thanks very much, but we’ll take it from here.
Which is what we all actually did in March and April 2020. The human to human behaviour in the first month was actually marvellous and everyone was on the same page.
Then came some interesting age and vulnerabilities data, and a non nuanced government narrative of doom and gloom and certain death. Which we're still in.