Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues



  • @mariner4life we have aluminium ones at home for the kids.



  • @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life we have aluminium ones at home for the kids.

    I hate those too, they have a taste

    We just need to accept we peaked the straw at plastic



  • @mariner4life straws are for kids...who cares if they taste



  • Stainless steel ones shouldn't taste and they don't collapse with too much pressure like plastic (and yeah, cardboard are shit).

    Gotta say the objective of saving the planet does seem to have diminished a bit in this conversation...



  • @mariner4life said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life we have aluminium ones at home for the kids.

    I hate those too, they have a taste

    We just need to accept we peaked the straw at plastic

    Just ask them if they can fill your own mug.
    alt text



  • @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    Stainless steel ones shouldn't taste and they don't collapse with too much pressure like plastic (and yeah, cardboard are shit).

    Gotta say the objective of saving the planet does seem to have diminished a bit in this conversation...

    So we are supposed to judge straws based on their ability to withstand pressure?



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    Stainless steel ones shouldn't taste and they don't collapse with too much pressure like plastic (and yeah, cardboard are shit).

    Gotta say the objective of saving the planet does seem to have diminished a bit in this conversation...

    So we are supposed to judge straws based on their ability to withstand pressure?

    Functionality I think. Straws that collapse and don't deliver the desired result I would class as a fail. That is when in use and get a bit of a blockage they don't work.
    Should we be judging them on aesthetics as well?



  • @antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life we have aluminium ones at home for the kids.

    I hate those too, they have a taste

    We just need to accept we peaked the straw at plastic

    Just ask them if they can fill your own mug.
    alt text

    Good option, but not for frozen coke



  • @mariner4life this one has a silicon straw...perfect really, can be cleaned, and still take to the movies for your frozen coke, plus, gooder for the environment, and I'm sure you could get a Darth Vader one if you wanted.

    8a365515-86d9-439b-819d-b434a0b6e2e2-image.png



  • @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life this one has a silicon straw...perfect really, can be cleaned, and still take to the movies for your frozen coke, plus, gooder for the environment, and I'm sure you could get a Darth Vader one if you wanted.

    8a365515-86d9-439b-819d-b434a0b6e2e2-image.png

    I think we've got his christmas present sorted. Someone drop a quick word to Mrs M4L.



  • @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    Stainless steel ones shouldn't taste and they don't collapse with too much pressure like plastic (and yeah, cardboard are shit).

    Gotta say the objective of saving the planet does seem to have diminished a bit in this conversation...

    So we are supposed to judge straws based on their ability to withstand pressure?

    Functionality I think. Straws that collapse and don't deliver the desired result I would class as a fail. That is when in use and get a bit of a blockage they don't work.
    Should we be judging them on aesthetics as well?

    I genuinely have no idea what you are doing with your straws that collapsing due to pressure is a concern.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    Stainless steel ones shouldn't taste and they don't collapse with too much pressure like plastic (and yeah, cardboard are shit).

    Gotta say the objective of saving the planet does seem to have diminished a bit in this conversation...

    So we are supposed to judge straws based on their ability to withstand pressure?

    Functionality I think. Straws that collapse and don't deliver the desired result I would class as a fail. That is when in use and get a bit of a blockage they don't work.
    Should we be judging them on aesthetics as well?

    I genuinely have no idea what you are doing with your straws that collapsing due to pressure is a concern.

    I haven't used a straw in several decades, and the technology may have improved, but an icecream blockage would cause the straw to collapse when having a milkshake. That shouldn't happen.



  • I'll add that when you heard about a girl that could suck a golf ball through a garden hose you wouldn't expect the garden hose to fold in on itself...

    I'm going to rest my case for better straws there, although the discussion is a bit of a straw man for climate change.



  • @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    I'll add that when you heard about a girl that could suck a golf ball through a garden hose...

    I knew that girl. She could lick the chrome off a bumper hitch, too. Good times.



  • @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @mariner4life straws are for kids...who cares if they taste

    but milkshakes





  • @jegga looks like a Box Office Hit!



  • @jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    Greta’s backstory has a few holes

    https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2019/12/23/greta-the-movie/#more-42746

    "There have already been suggestions that Greta’s rise to fame was not quite as spontaneous as advertised."

    Greenpeace Greta. What disappoints me is how easily manipulated people are. I just hope this is the bottom point. And 2020 will be a more sane year

    But anyway Merry Christmas to all. Including the end-of-worlders.



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  • I have a few moments before I start cooking (Dad joke there if you look for it given the thread).
    I was at a Christmas party with neighbours last night (I'm going to bash my hangover with some champagne when I start cooking) and met another neighbour that I haven't seen for a couple of years.

    He is an Oceanography professor that lives in the USA and only comes down to NZ for a month or so a year, to stay at his property as he is a Kiwi originally. A very positive, optimistic, individual but he was struggling to be that way when I questioned him on climate change. He is well into his sixties but loves his work so hasn't retired. He is also one of the blokes that does all of the research on ice, sea temperatures, etc. Has been down to Antarctica many times and returned from a trip to the Arctic on a Russian icebreaker a couple of weeks ago. They got all the way to 85deg north and the news wasn't good from the data collected, nor was it when he was in Antarctica earlier. Rate of polar melt is increasing and the ice was thin enough for them to keep going North.

    This from a guy who has no political agenda, isn't being reported in the press, just collects data. He has nothing to prove to me, is well off enough to retire, so all conspiracy theories aren't really relevant. He just has collected data, no papers being produced, grants being given, theories to be completed, someone else will handle all of that later on if you really want to believe that it is all corrupt. The Russians funded it I think, so you can start a conspiracy there usually. He also mentioned that people just don't want it to be true so it is hard to win in a court of public opinion in spite of the numbers.

    The rate of change is escalating as he said was predicted 40 years ago by many scientists. A few of of us here have said it won't be changed by governments making promises and having meetings, but by individuals taking action, he agrees. He, as I said, is a positive guy, and thinks that with a concerted effort and the technology available, carbon release and storage could be managed.

    So that is from the horse's mouth, not filtered through a media organisation or political party. Just me of course, and I'm not going to enter a debate, I have just reported what was said.



  • @Snowy
    There have always been end of worlders about. Especially when their job and status depends on it. In my lifetime it was nuclear weapons. Then the ozone breakdown where 500 mile per hour solar winds would destroy earth. The scare stories regarding global warming started around 50 years back. All the snow in NZ would disappear. Didn't happened. Gore's Inconvenient Truth predicted all the ice would be gone after 5 years. Didn't happen.

    For some reason the mind can go on a negative path. Add in lots of money with negative end of world predictions and it simple feeds this human flaw to not live in the present moment and enjoy life and instead swim in self pity and scare stories about the world ending.

    If the world does end it will be unlikely to be anything anyone predicts. Unless of course it's a money earner in some way. And then it will be a fluke that for once the end of worlders got it right.



  • @Winger

    So heres an article about this Arctic ice
    https://principia-scientific.org/is-arctic-sea-ice-really-declining/

    The glaciers in Alaska were definitely less extensive then than they are today. It is also hard to be worried about even a 6% decline in sea ice as it has NO effect on sea level and ships are still being caught in the sea ice every year.

    Also, the voyage of the St. Roch in 1940 (during WW2) by the NORTHERN Northwest Passage has not been repeated recently due to heavy sea ice.



  • @Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    There have always been end of worlders about.

    Hardly an end of worlder. Did you actually read it?

    This for example:

    @Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    He, as I said, is a positive guy, and thinks that with a concerted effort and the technology available, carbon release and storage could be managed.



  • @Snowy you should do your own research



  • @taniwharugby Yeah, I'll try think thinking for myself when I've collected my own data from the poles.



  • @Snowy I'll sponsor your trip for you, BTW I work for ExxonMobil...



  • @taniwharugby said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Snowy you should do your own research

    Good call , the Internet is full of great sources that won’t just back up your preconceived ideas .



  • @Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.

    The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.

    But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?

    Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.

    Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap

    Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth

    Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.

    Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.

    I could be wrong but I think people believing all kinds of moronic conspiracy theories wasn't as prevalent before the internet . Now it seems like theres hordes of morons who will never be convinced 9/11 wasn't an inside job or even more dangerously they believe nonsense like homeopathy or that the measles vaccine causes autism. 72 people died in Samoa and these nutters are still posting lies about vaccines on social media.

    Try to stick to the topic. Or do you always do this in a group. Butt in with irrelevant crap

    point of order there Winger, it is relevant as it speaks to the credibility of your source:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20151022220909/http://www.principia-scientific.org/the-vaccine-hoax-is-over.html



  • @reprobate Wow. The NY times is full of shit but that is believable if you think for yourself.



  • @reprobate said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Salacious-Crumb said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    The earth has been hotter in the past; the earth has been cooler in the past.

    The qualifying factor in the date above is “recorded history,” in other words, when man recorded it.

    But if the earth has been both hotter and cooler before mankind existed, is it even remotely possible, just a teeny-weeny little bit, that maybe mankind isn’t exclusively responsible for climate change, and that maybe the sun and water vapour are factors too?

    Just asking, in good faith, before we’re forced to abandon civilization to make temperatures drop maybe 1/100th of a degree.

    Don't take any notice if the graph above (the first post). Its crap

    Climate change is just a weird modern day end of world cult. Where CO2 somehow through a process called back radiation (radiation leaving earth and returning about a second later) creates more warming than the sun does. And this process will almost destroy planet earth

    Our sin now though is driving car and heating our house. And we must pay indulgences for our sinfulness in the form of contributions to climate funds etc.

    Its amazing what garbage people believe. If the elite said there was health giving mineral on the moon and we all need to pay into a fund to get the minerals and repeated it over and over and over etc in the papers most would demand the Govt pay into this fund to save lives.

    I could be wrong but I think people believing all kinds of moronic conspiracy theories wasn't as prevalent before the internet . Now it seems like theres hordes of morons who will never be convinced 9/11 wasn't an inside job or even more dangerously they believe nonsense like homeopathy or that the measles vaccine causes autism. 72 people died in Samoa and these nutters are still posting lies about vaccines on social media.

    Try to stick to the topic. Or do you always do this in a group. Butt in with irrelevant crap

    point of order there Winger, it is relevant as it speaks to the credibility of your source:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20151022220909/http://www.principia-scientific.org/the-vaccine-hoax-is-over.html

    Disgraceful. There was another poster who’s name escapes me that used to cite sources like that to back up his pro disease claims. One of them was the natural health news , fortunately that ridiculous persons credibility was well and truly blown by then .



  • @Snowy

    He's just another 'researcher' on the CC gravy train. Ive been reading about the arctic ice all melting for so long now. Gore's prediction. What about all the NZ snow melting on the ski fields.

    Look if you are making money from it in some way fair enough I guess. But some youngsters are losing sleep over it. Its gone on long enough now. Hopefully Trump will put this scare story to bed before long as the way its going it will seriously impact on the Wests economy esp with the number of crazies on board due to brainwashing in the media and at school.

    The sane need to step up and stop this from going any further, Because the "science" supporting MMCC is beyond silly. According to the proven science warming from back radiation (where radiation leaves earth and returns about one second later) cause twice the warming from the sun. And cows farting (or burbing) is a real concern. FFS. I wonder at times if the elite are piss taking and having fun to see how gullible we are.

    individual but he was struggling to be that way when I questioned him on climate change. He is well into his sixties but loves his work so hasn't retired. He is also one of the blokes that does all of the research on ice, sea temperatures, etc. Has been down to Antarctica many times and returned from a trip to the Arctic on a Russian icebreaker a couple of weeks ago. They got all the way to 85deg north and the news wasn't good from the data collected, nor was it when he was in Antarctica earlier. Rate of polar melt is increasing and the ice was thin enough for them to keep going North.



  • This post is deleted!


  • Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.

    https://www.quora.com/Has-Michael-Manns-hockey-stick-graph-been-debunked
    Has Michael Mann's hockey stick graph been debunked?
    James Matkin
    James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
    Updated Nov 18

    Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.

    alt text



  • @Winger Did you see the next graph on that link you posted, seems to support the hockey stick. Looks like we can all find data that supports our belief. I find thinking for myself helps and I have experienced and seen signs of a warming planet. I cannot know if that is man made as I am no scientist, but I tend to believe experts in that field.
    alt text



  • @chimoaus No you believe some experts, and don't believe others



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Same as every other person on the planet then?



  • @chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Same as every other person on the planet then?

    Yip



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback This is part of the problem isn't it, we as humans tend to have very strong beliefs that rarely change and we can be stubborn even in the face of evidence, think flat earthers.

    When something like CC comes along it can be almost impossible to find a consensus among people. Who do you believe? How much evidence is enough? How long do you have to wait until the debate is over?

    None of us are experts yet we all have strong beliefs including myself. As I have mentioned before I am suffering through the hottest ever recorded temperatures on record, drought and the real risk of fire. It is not hard for my brain to link these dramas to climate change, but is that the actual cause? As usual plenty say yes and some say no.

    My theory is if we are responsible for CC and we can do things that reduce our impact without causing too many dramas I think we should. I am thinking greener energy, electric cars etc etc.



  • @chimoaus This comment was good just above your graph:

    If you ask the IPCC, founded in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme, they’ll tell you that the planet has warmed since the Medieval Warm Period based on the following graph collecting estimates of past climate by many researchers.

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    @chimoaus No you believe some experts, and don't believe others

    Yep. Believe the university professor scientists (who get grants), or the scientists supported by oil companies and governments?

    I've watched worldwide meteorology for 35 years as it effected my everyday life on all parts of the globe. I also studied it and I believe my neighbour. It is warming, whether the "tipping point" predictions are credible, I don't know and neither was he sure.

    In some ways historical data is irrelevant because we didn't have mass human involvement with releasing carbon (or not, depending on your viewpoint) as a scientific control. There is nothing to compare it to.



  • @chimoaus said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:

    My theory is if we are responsible for CC and we can do things that reduce our impact without causing too many dramas I think we should. I am thinking greener energy, electric cars etc etc.

    I think most sensible people are in total agreement with this.

    The outrage is when the plan involves the destruction of society, indirect killing millions of people and is pushed by rich jet setting folk who don't practice what they preach and are pro censorship, expulsion or imprisonment for those that don't tow their extremist line.

    I think there is just a lot of ignorance out there as to what adopting extremist policies would actually do to an average person's life. Websites like NZ's Stuff.co.nz (and I'm sure many more mainstream sites) outright ban all opposing views or simply paint everyone with an alternative take as 'climate change deniers' which sits somewhere between 'Holocaust denier' and 'Flat-earther' in the hierarchy of people you don't want to associate with.


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