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@Tim very good article, and I think postmodernism spreading through Univerisities and wider society is also adding to the problem as they share a common goal with ISIS in terms of undermining western democracy. Those two in combination have led us to where we are today.
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@Hooroo Sometimes I wish I could have that state of mind, it would certainly make me a happier individual. The way I feel is if we don't do something now what will the world look like in 5, 10, 15 years? In my mind since I see a real problem I owe it to the next generation to at least try and address it.
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@Pot-Hale said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@antipodean Sickening isn't it. I guess they just want to avoid having egg on their face when its discovered that the terrorists were really white football hooligans right?
Weak and pathetic.
Tommy Robinson (who isn't known to pull punches) makes a great point as to what will happen if the authorities don't actually do something people will start taking things into their own hands then you'll really have an extremist problem.
That's quite a detailed rant from Tommy Robinson. His proposed solution of internment borrowed from the Troubles in Northern Ireland would give me pause for thought however.
I'm old enough to have grown up during the war in Northern Ireland and seen the effect it had on people on both sides of the divide. There was plenty of internment of people - from both Republican and Loyalist/Unionst factions. I'm not sure how successful a policy it was though. It brought like-minded people together into the one space, and guarded by their 'oppressors', fostered further hatred/opposition and deferred attempts at bringing about a long-term peaceful solution.
Robinson contends that if the British Govt do nothing then homegrown militias will emerge to take the law into their own hands - and again he draws a parallel with NI on this - presumably making reference to some of the 'murder gangs' that were created within communities. He fails to acknowledge that the British Army had already been dispatched onto the streets in the late sixties/early seventies - initially to protect Catholic communities - and then found themselves fighting people within them. If Britain were to become like NI in the seventies and eighties with troops deployed actively on the streets on a daily basis, patrolling and supporting the police (who would then be armed like the RUC were), what would ordinary Britons make of life then? Or attempting to 'intern' a cohort of some 3,500-4,00o suspected people, what does someone like Robinson think will be the intended and unintended consequences of that policy?
For all that, I understand his frustration. These are dangerous times without doubt. And that danger is getting closer and closer to all of our streets and front doors.
The US did something similar Iraq and inadvertently created ISIS. Putting all the bad eggs in one basket never proves to be a particularly smart tactic.
What frightens me is his claim that 9,000 plus people were arrested on suspicion of terrorism related activities. That's an astonishing number and even if 1/10th of those suspects actually intended to carry out attacks, that would be carnage on a massive scale.
PM May talks about"enough is enough", but what more can she do? The numbers are ridiculous and the claims that this is nothing more than a couple of mentally challenged lone wolves have been proven to be absolute bollocks. I can't see any solution until there is some meaningful reform within Islam, but that will never happen, and if it does there will probably be a massive schism that puts the Sunni-Shia thing to shame. Ultimately though, it's other Muslims who are by far the biggest victims of this extremism. The fact that we will have to live with it like they do absolutely sickens me.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
Great to see the actual mention of evil Islamist extremism, hopefully media can follow suit. Good speech I thought. UK would be idiots to go to Corbyn now
This bothers me if it isn't done correctly.
The UK had already bought in rafts of hate speech and terror laws.. and they used by the authorities to harass people over rubbish bins and attack people like Tommy Robinson. These laws usually attack people for Islamophobia! Screw more of that. Any new laws have to be against religious extremists. ..and a list of religions covered attached. At this time just Islam. .. but if Jews, Christians conduct multiple attacks in the UK they can be added to. Islam can be taken off after 15 years of no attacks.
I fear any new laws will just make the UK closer to a police state. This is an Islamic extremist issue.... not a hate speech issue.That is the great worry alright. And although your idea might be more effective we will need to be in a position of daily deadly terrorist attacks for it even to be considered and even then there would be huge opposition to it. I think it is a step in the right direction for May and there is no other even slightly viable alternative in this election.
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@Tim said in Another attack in London:
An article from the Spectator published today:
How to tackle the terrorist threat: four steps we must now consider
James Forsyth
For the second time in this election, political campaigning is suspended because of a terrorist attack. Given the volume of terrorist attacks—three in the last three months and five other plots disrupted—you might think that the issue would have dominated the campaign. But it hasn’t. Until Theresa May’s statement today talking about how there has been too much tolerance for extremism, there has been remarkably little discussion about how this country should deal with this problem.
Now, you can say that we shouldn’t allow the terrorists to set the agenda. But I fear that the main reason for the absence of debate is that no one is quite sure what to do. However, it is imperative that we start talking seriously about the steps we can take. This problem isn’t going away and, as the Prime Minister acknowledged this morning, it is currently getting worse.
There are those talking about internment. I think this is a flawed idea, and one that won’t work. But there are things we need to do. Ideologically we need to accept that these terrorists believe that they find justifications for their action in their faith, and saying that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam is actually counter-productive. As the historian Tom Holland has pointed out, only once we appreciate this link and the fact there is schism within Islam can we start to really deal with this threat.
Then, we need to consider whether leaving the UK for certain states that have a particular terrorist problem, for example Libya, should require an exit visa. We don’t yet know whether the London Bridge attackers have links with any other countries. But we know that the Manchester attacker went to Libya multiple times and the New York Times is reporting that he used these visits to meet with Islamic State commanders. Exit visas would make it easier for the security services to keep an eye on these kind of trips and to arrest anyone who went to these places without permission and charge them with an imprisonable criminal offence.
We also need to consider whether we need Singapore-style rules to prevent public housing from becoming racial or religious ghettoes. In diverse towns and cities, is it really sensible to have estates that are made up almost exclusively of people from one ethnic or faith group? By this logic, I wonder if we should pause before allowing faith schools to be made up solely of pupils of that faith.
We need to be having a public debate about whether we need an Islamic version of the Maynooth Grant, the money the British state sent to the Maynooth seminary in Ireland in the 19th century to create a cadre of Roman Catholic priests who were more sympathetic to the British state. A modern-day Maynooth Grant would help foster a British version of Islam, one that is more easily compatible with our society. If we go down this road, it should be accompanied by a tightening of the rules on foreign funding of religious institutions in Britain and on preachers coming here from abroad.
The answers to the terrorist problem we face aren’t simple. This isn’t about foreign policy, it is about the hatred a small—but significant—number of Islamists have for the very basis of our society. Tackling it won’t be simple. But ignoring the problem isn’t going to solve it. So, as a matter of urgency, we need to start having a grown-up–and frank–debate about what we are going to do.
Hmmm.
There's a certain amount of irony in British commentators finding parallels and potential solutions to IsIs through its historical experiences in Ireland. The Maynooth Grant resulted in the largest growth in anti-Irish prejudice, commentary and behaviours when it was proposed in Britain. True, the British govt took over the grant to stem the flow of Irish seminarians going to France to become revolutionaries, but the British state providing support for the Catholic Church gave rise to massive outrage and protests from many Protestants, and Orange Order unionists in particular. How that outrage might find form in modern times ('appeasing the terrorists') is something to consider.
In addition, it may have quelled problems in England with its conflicts elsewhere, but it is also may have helped fan the flames of religious hatred and division in Ireland between north-east and south.
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Re: "There are no easy answers, etc." Of course. But Scott Adams has an interesting hot take. I like it. "Change the frame."
Helping The Terrorists Recruit
There is more terrorism in the news, this time in London. So how do the British politicians respond?
They do a recruitment ad for more terrorists.
They start by giving the terrorists cool labels, such as “Islamic extremists.” Do you know what sounds like an awesome club for an angry young Muslim to join? I’m thinking “Islamic Extremist” sound about right. That branding should be great for recruitment.
The media also helps terror recruitment with their wall-to-wall news about the terrorists’ successes. Every time they mention the body count, the bad guys cheer.
A better approach for the media, if they want to be helpful, might involve inviting a continuous line of Muslim scholars and critics to talk about how these “gullible losers” were duped by ISIS to kill themselves and spend eternity in Hell. And we need lots of visual and other persuasion about Hell. I want Photoshopped images of the terrorists burning for eternity. I want descriptions of the smells, tastes, and sounds they are experiencing, so the next “lone wolf” has something to contrast with the 72 virgin story. Let’s put some doubt into that mix. Fear is a good persuader.
I also wonder why the families of terrorists are not being flooded with condolence messages from Muslim clerics saying they are sorry about their kid burning in Hell for eternity. Be sincere about it. Include some digital representation of Hell in those cards and letters.
Change the frame.
—
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/161427038341/helping-the-terrorists-recruit
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo Sometimes I wish I could have that state of mind, it would certainly make me a happier individual. The way I feel is if we don't do something now what will the world look like in 5, 10, 15 years? In my mind since I see a real problem I owe it to the next generation to at least try and address it.
I think it will eventually run its course of destruction and then something heavier and more destructive will come along and IS will be a thing of history.
A massive virus or bug could decimate a large percentage of the population of this planet as well? I'm not overly concerned about that.
I am kind of the opinion that if we just all get on with our own lives and keep our sticky beaks out of oithers business you can live a happy and more fulfilling life.
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@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo Sometimes I wish I could have that state of mind, it would certainly make me a happier individual. The way I feel is if we don't do something now what will the world look like in 5, 10, 15 years? In my mind since I see a real problem I owe it to the next generation to at least try and address it.
I am kind of the opinion that if we just all get on with our own lives and keep our sticky beaks out of oithers business you can live a happy and more fulfilling life.
For sure, no doubt that's exactly what the kids going to the Ariana Grande concert were doing.
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I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary. -
@Frank said in Another attack in London:
Was the Fern down because we were on the verge of solving the ISIS problem?
Problem? What problem?
http://www.thesilverfern.com/topic/1684/forum-software-update/10
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@Hooroo I genuinely hope you're right, my worry is that you're not and a group passivity to this until it effects us personally may lead to action far too late.
Footage of radicalisation in islamic schools and mosques is pretty unnerving when you start to consider the numbers involved and the lack of action currently in place. I'm sure NZ won't feel the effects for a long time. Aussie will be sooner, one on right now in melbourne if early reports are to be believed.
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@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary.How were the IRA bomb far more scary??
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Crucial said in Another attack in London:
I'm going to steer clear of the Islam discussion here and just make an observation on how this affects life in London.
Quite obviously it is a big city and you have to be pretty unlucky to be wrong time, wrong place and get caught up in this shit. I guess where this one made me a little more wary is that for me this was only wrong time. last Saturday I was sitting in the spot where the fuckwits eventually got gunned down and earlier on Saturday my son and his girlfriend had discussed heading there that night.
Still, timing is everything eh?
I still feel safer here now than I did in the late 80s though, mainly because of the way these idiots operate which at least still gives you a chance even if the time/place equation happens. The old IRA bombs were far more scary.How were the IRA bomb far more scary??
Because they scared me more?
I seem to remember everyone being on edge from threats, certainly you tried to get in and out of tube and rail stations quickly. The threats were vocal more than actual until after I left London but what had been expected finally did come.
At the moment I am more wary of the hammer wielding scooter thugs that just target people from behind in packs. They are a scourge.
Another attack in London