A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?
-
So if you've been reading a lot of this Politics forum you'll know I'm in equal parts fascinated and terrified by what appears to be a spiraling out of control culture of over-the-top political correctness, identity politics, censorship and seemingly justified political violence.
What I want to know is whether there really is as much of a crisis as I think I'm seeing or is this just a case of history repeating itself and it just seems so much more pronounced due to the inter-connectivity the internet has provided us.
I've always been fascinated with what led to situations in history such as Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia where a society could seemingly suddenly lose all common sense resulting in the deaths of millions of innocent citizens. I feel after the last few months that I have a much better grasp on how that could happen where the value of an individual is now being replaced by a value of a collective. I'm not at all saying it is going to go that way but the sheer weight of ignorance and censorship is absolutely mindblowing..at least to my young(ish) eyes.
-
It's a topic that is discussed quite often around the dinner table at Chez Cato - is it different this time? Well leaving aside the trite view that it is always different, I think we need to consider if it worse than usual or just seems so.
In this regard I think that the level of information that is easily available at any time of the day and the ability for people, literally anyone, to have their say, be offended, start a Facebook campaign etc has resulted in a ballooning of often unimportant stuff that has taken on a significance that far outweighs its real importance or relevance.
However looking at the two issues that seem to polarize people, terrorism and the leftist PC ideology, are they worse or not?
Terrorism. In the UK we had a long determined campaign by the IRA which in many ways was worse than what we have seen today. One very slight comfort was that it was not always totally indiscriminate and often there would be a warning though both lessened as the campaign wore on. The current lot are just unfathomable and in that way worse. Not as efficient as the IRA, not as regular and rarely of the same magnitude. Several other European countries also had their terrorist issues too but the current lot are more widespread and have of course hit the US, and that in itself will make it bigger. To me the frightening difference is that the IRA had an end game in sight and I dread to consider what any possible end game for this lot might look like.
Lefty bollocks? I'm hoping this is just a phase that we're going through that this sort of shit gets any traction. Back along we needed the bleeding heart liberals, we had widespread sexism, racism, we had apartheid, we had oppressed working classes. Those battles, which were worth fighting have pretty much been won. Yes there are still the equivalents of the little Japanese sniper on an island still fighting WWII 20 years later but he is an aberration. We need to stop carpet bombing worldwide to kill him and just deal with the little fucker when he pops up.
Ain't happening though.
-
The big difference is social media imo. We know it's playing a big role in making some of these things/issues/movements appear much more widespread or significant than they really are. There is a real mash up of local and global issues and the interplay between them can be pretty crazy.
-
@Paekakboyz said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
The big difference is social media imo. We know it's playing a big role in making some of these things/issues/movements appear much more widespread or significant than they really are. There is a real mash up of local and global issues and the interplay between them can be pretty crazy.
And the media in general are far more sensationalist than the old days. I'd even go as far as to say pretty irresponsible with their scare mongering
-
@canefan limited fact checking when regurgitating articles form other sources and running with so many opinion pieces...luckily we have the Fern to get real news from
-
@taniwharugby said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
@canefan limited fact checking when regurgitating articles form other sources and running with so many opinion pieces...luckily we have the Fern to get real news from
I was watchin a doco on History Channel about the Pearl Harbour attack. FDR had a supper meeting with a journo on the evening after the attack, when details of the carnage had not been released to the public. Roosevelt disclosed everything; the unreported extent of the destruction, the death toll, and the "why did we get caught with our pants down?" questions. The reporter was given the biggest scoop of his life, but after consideration decided not to report it to allow the President to inform the American public. These days it would have been leaked out on twitter before he'd left the room
-
One thing that might be different from the past is how large corporations are fully embracing this madness and are happily doing their part encouraging it. Facebook, Youtube, Google, Twitter all evidenced censoring opinion that doesn't fit this lefty narrative and more than happy to characterise those that disagree as something resembling Nazis.
As private companies that is their right but due to their near monopolisation of the internet I find it pretty frightening. It doesn't take long to see that people like Sargon of Akkad, Jordan Peterson, SomeBlackGuy, Dave Rubin, Majiid Nawaz aren't exactly hate mongers and if you spend 20 minutes of your time listening to what they say you realise they have some pretty compelling points.
I work for a large company and tomorrow is 'Where it purple day' where you show your support against bullying of LGBT youth (just before the aussie marriage plebiscite). My company has 'come out' strongly in favour for it. Again that is fine, they can do what they want but at last count there are 30 posters (not even an exaggeration) in the foyer by the elevators telling people to 'Wear it purple'. This foyer is only 4m x 18m, its like purple wallpaper...what if I don't want to wear purple to work? I wonder what the company feels about youth from conservative or religious backgrounds who might not support same sex marriage and are getting a hard time for it, is that bullying ok?
Have companies always been so political? I see some councils in Australia are now openly campaigning for same-sex marriage and others have decided not to recognise Australia day.
It must be a very lonely time for those outside this progressive bubble.
-
@Rembrandt fuck that sounds horrendous mate.
I can only imagine the aggression you'd be confronted with if you said "no purple for me, I support LGBT issues differently" -
-
-
-
@Rembrandt said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
@canefan I have been informed unequivically that the rising markets are soley because of Obama's previous policies. Mr T is merely riding his coattails and catastrophe economic and/or environmental is only a matter of time.
Well that last bit is certainly true, but then again history shows us that it always is.
-
@Rembrandt said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
@Siam Yeah waiting for tomorrow.
"Where's your Purple Rembrandt?"
"Oh was that today?! You really should have advertised more!"You should dress up in costume. They'd love this shit
-
Stating the obvious here, but the parallels with communism are striking. Something starts off as a very noble ideal and mutates into something totally illiberal and very destructive.
Yes social media has allowed wacky opinions to get a much larger audience than normal, but what really frightens me is that these opinions are shared by a very large number of people with huge influence. This includes university professors, cultural gatekeepers, the media and incredibly enough (as pointed out above) heads of large corporations.
I'd like to think that common sense will prevail due to weight of numbers, but numbers don't mean anything if people are (justifiably) too afraid of the consequences to speak out.
@Rembrandt isn't that just the ultimate in virtue signalling. Exactly what will all of you wearing purple to work do to stop trans people from getting bullied? But I guess you'll be able to feel good inside and project those feelings. That's the most important thing.
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
Stating the obvious here, but the parallels with communism are striking. Something starts off as a very noble ideal and mutates into something totally illiberal and very destructive.
It's humans. Humans fuck up everything, even religion probably started as a noble thing that got corrupted by humans
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel The fear is palpable, I bought up the sheer number of posters and people agreed but were very very quiet about it. I probably should watch my tongue, would be nice not to need the job and challenge a few ideas,.
-
@Rembrandt Remember. If you're not with us, you're against us!
-
@Rembrandt said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel The fear is palpable, I bought up the sheer number of posters and people agreed but were very very quiet about it. I probably should watch my tongue, would be nice not to need the job and challenge a few ideas,.
It's quite incredible that you should fear for your job because of that. What a wonderful and tolerant environment.
-
@Rembrandt said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
So if you've been reading a lot of this Politics forum you'll know I'm in equal parts fascinated and terrified by what appears to be a spiraling out of control culture of over-the-top political correctness, identity politics, censorship and seemingly justified political violence.
What I want to know is whether there really is as much of a crisis as I think I'm seeing or is this just a case of history repeating itself and it just seems so much more pronounced due to the inter-connectivity the internet has provided us.
I've always been fascinated with what led to situations in history such as Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia where a society could seemingly suddenly lose all common sense resulting in the deaths of millions of innocent citizens. I feel after the last few months that I have a much better grasp on how that could happen where the value of an individual is now being replaced by a value of a collective. I'm not at all saying it is going to go that way but the sheer weight of ignorance and censorship is absolutely mindblowing..at least to my young(ish) eyes.
I have been away in Fiji so late to this but,,,
I have a very conflicted view of this, the old man in me despairs at the stupidity of millennials and where it is leading us. The other part get solace from history, the far left are 'The Man' now, they control, mass media, universities , Hollywood, social media, corporates and govt. Step out of the orthodoxy that they espouse and you are hunted and persecuted.
Sound familiar?
Does to me.
The US in the 40's 50's and 60's... the conservative element controlled everything, show the least inclination to step outside the bounds of decency as designated by these moral authorities and you got it in the neck.
What happened? What always happens when the man stifles the next generation, the youth start rebelling against 'The Man', it becomes fun to run a counter culture, it has always been WAAAAAY more fun to take the piss out of the Man, mock The Man and offend The Mans sensibilities. We got Woodstock, burning bras, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, hippies,free speech marches, rock and roll, etc etc
The problem The Man has is that they take themselves VERY seriously. There is zero joy or fun when you spend or your time trying to be offended and stomp on those offending you.
I firmly believe this counter culture revolution might end up taking a couple of decades, but I think a counter culture revolution will happen. The youth have simply never just followed in the cultural footsteps of the parents. They follow fun and rebellion.It is ZERO fun being a puritan. And the left nowdays are the puritans.
-
...except it simply is not true: the far left does not control the government. nz has a centre right govt. so too australia. the uk has tories. the usa has trump/republicans.
those parties have gained democratic majorities. if the world had been taken over by the far left, would that be the case? -
@reprobate said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
...except it simply is not true: the far left does not control the government. nz has a centre right govt. so too australia. the uk has tories. the usa has trump/republicans.
those parties have gained democratic majorities. if the world had been taken over by the far left, would that be the case?I am not sure if you are just trolling or are just completely missing the point....
1/ Most current right wing govt are not very right wing and very cowardly when challenged by the far left. Trump being an exception.. and look at the hysteria over him. He will go down in history as many things...one of which willbe a counter culture flash point.
2/ Left wing parties were also in gov't during the 40's 50s and 60s... did that make the prevailing culture suddenly non conservative? -
how is it trolling or missing the point?
you said that the government was controlled by the far left. it's not, and you know it's not. that's why you've now toned your statement down to 'current right wing govts aren't very right wing' and 'prevailing culture' etc.
look at reality rather than going looking for shit to be outraged about. here's an example: metiria's bullshit - far left madness you cry. sure, agreed. but if the far left were in control of the world, why has support for her party been wiped out? why is she gone?
it's the same reason we, oz, us, uk all have centrist, conservative govts - because the majority of people are not far left, or far right. sure, those parties are not as conservative as in the past, but that is simply what happens over time - conservative today is not pro-slavery, anti-suffrage, get thee to a nunnery etc. -
@reprobate said in A question for Fern old timers. History repeating?:
how is it trolling or missing the point?
you said that the government was controlled by the far left. it's not, and you know it's not. that's why you've now toned your statement down to 'current right wing govts aren't very right wing' and 'prevailing culture' etc.
look at reality rather than going looking for shit to be outraged about. here's an example: metiria's bullshit - far left madness you cry. sure, agreed. but if the far left were in control of the world, why has support for her party been wiped out? why is she gone?
it's the same reason we, oz, us, uk all have centrist, conservative govts - because the majority of people are not far left, or far right. sure, those parties are not as conservative as in the past, but that is simply what happens over time - conservative today is not pro-slavery, anti-suffrage, get thee to a nunnery etc.Ok. You have def missed the point. I can't make it any clearer.
