South americas meltdown
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Venezuela was the poster boy a few years back too.
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@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
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@jegga said in South americas meltdown:
@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
But you see this isn't REAL socialism even though it was apparently the blueprint a few years back. Seriously, how many more basket cases do these idiots need to see to realise that maybe this system doesn't work?
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It will take two decades for Venezuela to get out of this mess......just like the last time
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@rancid-schnitzel said in South americas meltdown:
@jegga said in South americas meltdown:
@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
But you see this isn't REAL socialism even though it was apparently the blueprint a few years back. Seriously, how many more basket cases do these idiots need to see to realise that maybe this system doesn't work?
All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
It's always about the humans.
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The people that were the biggest fans of Venezuela a few years back either completely avoid discussing Venezuela or perform some incredible mental contortions and blame the US for the disaster .
Hope Venezuela’s neighbours don’t end up in as bad a shape .
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@rancid-schnitzel said in South americas meltdown:
@jegga said in South americas meltdown:
@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
But you see this isn't REAL socialism even though it was apparently the blueprint a few years back. Seriously, how many more basket cases do these idiots need to see to realise that maybe this system doesn't work?
I have arrived at my own opinion (opinion, my opinion) that it isn't the particular "ism" that is the problem. people are the problem.
People are fucked.
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Your opinion is crap then.
Communism, Marxism , Nazism, Islamism are all crap and toxic. Responsible for purtting millions to death and deprevation.
Those ideologies are directly to blame.
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty and drastically expanded life spans.Just blaming people gives the evil ideologies an easy excuse.
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This is both unintentionally hilarious and sad at the same time
https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/thestandard.org.nz/keys-venezuelan-snub/amp/
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@mariner4life said in South americas meltdown:
@rancid-schnitzel said in South americas meltdown:
@jegga said in South americas meltdown:
@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
But you see this isn't REAL socialism even though it was apparently the blueprint a few years back. Seriously, how many more basket cases do these idiots need to see to realise that maybe this system doesn't work?
I have arrived at my own opinion (opinion, my opinion) that it isn't the particular "ism" that is the problem. people are the problem.
People are fucked.
Sorry what?
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@mariner4life said in South americas meltdown:
@rancid-schnitzel said in South americas meltdown:
@jegga said in South americas meltdown:
@catogrande Left wing newspapers like the guardian and celebrity mastercard marxists like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn were forever championing Chavez and his achievements there.
But you see this isn't REAL socialism even though it was apparently the blueprint a few years back. Seriously, how many more basket cases do these idiots need to see to realise that maybe this system doesn't work?
I have arrived at my own opinion (opinion, my opinion) that it isn't the particular "ism" that is the problem. people are the problem.
People are fucked.
I think you have a point, but the issue with systems like socialism is that they allow the worst parts of humanity to flourish. Any concentration of power always ends badly, whether it's Nazism, Islamism, Communism or Socialism.
Very simply what I think the west does well is ensuring that as much as possible the government is subordniate to the individual. Individual rights and freedoms are central to our societies.
Also, the free market means that both parties benefit from an exchange of goods and services, making the inherent self interest of humans a good thing as you are contributing to wider society by providing something good to gain benefits for yourself. If you remove the incentive to make money then things fall over pretty quickly.
Our systems are the best because they are the most resilient to being derailed by shitty human beings. Any move towards eroding individual rights is extremely dangerous which is why a lot of people are angered at Goff's actions in NZ despite it seeming a bit trivial in the wider scheme of things.
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@rocky-rockbottom said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty
WRONG. Capitalism is inherently criminogenic. The best route to getting ahead in a capitalistic society is by fucking your fellow man. Ask any billionaire.
Compared to what?
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@rocky-rockbottom said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty
WRONG. Capitalism is inherently criminogenic. The best route to getting ahead in a capitalistic society is by fucking your fellow man. Ask any billionaire.
Name a system that has led to better outcomes for as many people . The fact you cannot should tell you something. How has the existence of billionaires negatively effected you?
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I agree that having a democratically elected government and a relatively open market - and monetary system - at the center of an economy is crucial. Those three features of the West explain how it has been successful at raising human well-being and moving through depressive episodes with relatively less damage than controlled economies.
However, I’m not completely convinced that individualism itself is the reason, as countries which also emphasize collective responsibility (Japan, certain scandanavian countries) have done a better job (IMO) at creating equitable societies with a strong sense of social responsibility - also important for us humans who evolutionarily are really only built to work within small (up to 150 ppl) groups.
What I think is crucially important is building in (and respecting) the checks and balances on the power of individuals and groups. At its heart, that is the essence of the USA’s success - never trust one individual or group and always keep everyone in their toes. That goes, for example, about the extent to which politicians can mess around with the financial system (price controls) and currency - which IMO, was crucial to putting Venezuela on the course to the problems it has now. That, in itself, is where socialism is brought about via a command economy, which pretty much always fails. Of course.
Social democracy on the other hand (ie, where there is social intervention in the market, including regulation of private property and income distribution) could have been an effective road to take, but why would you do that when your only real goal is to be the hero of your country (Chavez), rather than try to build systems which survive after your dead and buried?
Helping ppl get homes is a good goal that could have been (somewhat) achieved - but was dependent on demand for the only product you produce. Once you start setting prices too when things don’t go your way, you’re fucked, you’ll never control the monetary system when you’re dependent on trade, you dumb fuck.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
@rocky-rockbottom said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty
WRONG. Capitalism is inherently criminogenic. The best route to getting ahead in a capitalistic society is by fucking your fellow man. Ask any billionaire.
Name a system that has led to better outcomes for as many people . The fact you cannot should tell you something. How has the existence of billionaires negatively effected you?
Benevolent despotism has had limited success. The trick is to find someone genuinely benevolent and then hope they remain so
I am available if asked nicely
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@dogmeat said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
@rocky-rockbottom said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty
WRONG. Capitalism is inherently criminogenic. The best route to getting ahead in a capitalistic society is by fucking your fellow man. Ask any billionaire.
Name a system that has led to better outcomes for as many people . The fact you cannot should tell you something. How has the existence of billionaires negatively effected you?
Benevolent despotism has had limited success. The trick is to find someone genuinely benevolent and then hope they remain so
I am available if asked nicely
Lee Kwan Yew would be the ultimate example of that. But he is the exception rather than the rule
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@gt12 sorry for the delayed reply, been hectic lately. Very reasonable post (as always) and agree with what you are saying.
My point about the individual being paramount was in the context of law and the government. I am also a big fan of a strong family unit and a strong sense of community - in fact with those in place you need even less government intervention. I think both of those have deteriorated in many western countries which is not good.
From what I understand in Japan people were/are expected to seek help from family first and foremost when they fell on hard times, and that helped ensure very low levels of unemployment and poverty. But since the financial crisis and increased welfare as a result a new generation of welfare dependant people have emerged - as you live there would be interested to hear your take on that?
I'm all for the government putting in place a safety net for those less fortunate, but I do not want welfare programs aimed at just redistrubuting wealth as that is not only straight up theft, it gives those in government way too much power. It also reduces incentives to actually work hard and contribute to society.
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@no-quarter said in South americas meltdown:
I'm all for the government putting in place a safety net for those less fortunate, but I do not want welfare programs aimed at just redistrubuting wealth as that is not only straight up theft, it gives those in government way too much power. It also reduces incentives to actually work hard and contribute to society.
As we're seeing with places like Australia. Generational welfare is now a thing. As the class divide widens, and the politicians seek to leverage that, the possibility for turning that around is narrowing. Being on the dole used to have a stigma attached to it, but now its a lifestyle.
At the same time though, its not like people are starving on the streets. And it is paradise compared to America where illness = bankruptcy for a lot of people. Not that you'd know how good we've got it based on the media rhetoric.
Gig economy's effect on social welfare capitalism is going to be very interesting as it expands.
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@canefan said in South americas meltdown:
@dogmeat said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
@rocky-rockbottom said in South americas meltdown:
@baron-silas-greenback said in South americas meltdown:
Capatalism on the other hand has lifted billions out of poverty
WRONG. Capitalism is inherently criminogenic. The best route to getting ahead in a capitalistic society is by fucking your fellow man. Ask any billionaire.
Name a system that has led to better outcomes for as many people . The fact you cannot should tell you something. How has the existence of billionaires negatively effected you?
Benevolent despotism has had limited success. The trick is to find someone genuinely benevolent and then hope they remain so
I am available if asked nicely
Lee Kwan Yew would be the ultimate example of that. But he is the exception rather than the rule
Ahh yes, Bright North Korea.
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@nta I was discussing the generational welfare with a client on Monday, as my old neighbours were starting a legacy...
Mother and father on the benefit, teenagers (both sexes) not working, popping out sprogs (or g/f pregnant) living at home with parents not working...
Grow up seeing your parents never working, must be quite easy to slide on into that same life.
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@taniwharugby you can KNOW there is something better/different out there, but why work for it?
When I was leaving high school (93), one of the local bogans (family been in the area generations) said he was going to work for forestry straight out of high school and earn $25k a year while I was wasting my money getting a degree.
Yep hope that's going well...
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@nta yeah going straight from school to work is a shit idea eh...
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@bones said in South americas meltdown:
@nta yeah going straight from school to work is a shit idea eh...
My son just quit school on Wednesday to start work next Monday .
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@jegga he's doomed. I left school and pumped gas. I mean...petroleum transfer technician.
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@taniwharugby said in South americas meltdown:
@nta I was discussing the generational welfare with a client on Monday, as my old neighbours were starting a legacy...
Mother and father on the benefit, teenagers (both sexes) not working, popping out sprogs (or g/f pregnant) living at home with parents not working...
Grow up seeing your parents never working, must be quite easy to slide on into that same life.
Intergenerational ferality is hard to combat , my mate employs a few Ferals and they get stuck with being “ the responsible “ one in the family and tapped for loans etc which makes them wonder if it’s worth the effort.
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@bones said in South americas meltdown:
@jegga he's doomed. I left school and pumped gas. I mean...petroleum transfer technician.
Oh well .
The careers people shouted my boy fish and chips for lunch and a brand new pair of work boots when he told them . Things have obviously changed a lot since I was at school .
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@bones I left school to pursue a professional golf career!
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@taniwharugby you went on the dole even earlier than I did then.
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@bones yep...I thought I may as well get some of that welfare money now and I'd pay it back later in life...
As to the golf, I worked out pretty quickly I couldnt stand being out on the driving range for hours on end practicing, I much preferred actually playing golf, so worked in the pro-shop to top up my dole until I decided to get a fulltime job...
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@taniwharugby should have gone to university eh.
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@bones nah I wasted enough money getting laid and drunk enough without going there!
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@bones said in South americas meltdown:
@nta yeah going straight from school to work is a shit idea eh...
I never said that. But it didn't stop you getting the shits about the possibility of an implication, eh?
My point was that he couldn't understand that there was more than one way to skin that particular cat. His Dad was forestry, so that was good enough for him. Didn't consider further education - he wasn't much of a student - but the thought of anything else e.g. A trade, simply didn't enter his head.
It's like that for kids in certain socio economic brackets: while the option to try something different is there, rarely does it happen because they're simply not aware of how to get there, or supported by the people around them.
Last I heard he was working the mines so he obviously did alright out of it all.
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@nta said in South americas meltdown:
@bones said in South americas meltdown:
@nta yeah going straight from school to work is a shit idea eh...
Last I heard he was working the mines so he obviously did alright out of it all.
A mate of mine who managed a major subcontractor for BMA told me this story which sums a lot of them up:
Due to uneven shifts, they got paid weekly but one was a long week and the other a short week. This was a constant source of tension with workers wanting their pay averaged over a fortnight. One particular miner who would have earned well north of a million dollars over the previous decade as an effectively unskilled worker rang to say he couldn't get to work following a short week because he didn't have enough cash to fill the car with petrol.
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@nta hah if you think that's the shits you must live in awful fear of your wife
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@bones it's the Fern. Safely assume everyone has the shits and you'll be on the right track.
It's a grumpy old man's paradise after all
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Venezuela is almost a failed state now, who could have seen that coming?
Oil prices are on the rise but Venezuela’s crude is one of the hardest to refine and Chávez fucked the industry over years ago so even that can’t help them . -
I wonder how Trotter feels now?
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2013/03/after-chavez.html?m=1
