England vs All Blacks



  • @margin_walker said in England vs All Blacks:

    2 points worth noting

    1. He's Welsh
    2. He lives for the reaction he gets from Kiwis, it keeps his profile sky high online despite the paywall. Every time he mentions New Zealand, the bloke gets an unofficial syndication in Stuff or The NZ Herald. If everyone just stopped talking about his latest missives they'd wither behind the paywall.

    That's hardly our fault - media be media. IIRC twice he was given regular columns in NZ publications and both times he got the boot (a Sunday paper and NZ %Rugby Monthly) because the readers didn't want his drivel.



  • @jc quoted the Walrus in England vs All Blacks:

    Courtney Lawes was the only player all afternoon who actually did stay onside.

    By being in front of all the off-side players apparently.


  • Banned

    @mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @jc said in England vs All Blacks:

    ... and Walrus article 2:

    In any match that they lose, New Zealand tend to complain about refereeing decisions for decades afterwards. If England apply those same standards to yesterday afternoon then they will be bitter to the end of time. A few minutes before the end of this drama, replacement scrum-half TJ Perenara’s kick was charged down by Courtney Lawes and Sam Underhill picked up the ball, utterly bamboozled Beauden Barrett and dived over the line.

    Jerome Garces, the referee, awarded the try and Twickenham celebrated wildly what would have been a thoroughly deserved victory. But then Marius Jonker, the TMO, attracted the referee’s attention and the incident went upstairs. There it festered, and was reversed. The officials got it utterly wrong, England were robbed.

    It is also worth mentioning that rear feet offside is something ignored by officials the world over and, indeed, as England attacked desperately in the last few minutes and carried the ball through phases, the All Blacks were offside in six consecutive phases by a big margin. If Lawes was offside then the officials missed about 100 similar offences by both sides.

    England played to a high level, with devil, purpose, structure and a swarming defence in which Maro Itoje was regal and Sam Underhill in career-revival mood. They led by 15-0 in the first half, and they could have won it in any number of ways without the shocking decision at the end. They opted for two drive-over tries from penalties at the start of the second half, but could not quite make it, and although they were overhauled for the first time in the match after the break there was never any sense that New Zealand were taking control.

    Indeed, in that first period and even until the end, not only did Itoje obliterate the two New Zealand locks in all phases, but Underhill and Kyle Sinckler started showing the fruits of their promise.

    New Zealand won this game not only thanks to the TMO at the end but also due to the only recognisable platform of pressure they had at the end of the first half. The lack of any true celebration by the men in black either on the final whistle or at the drab presentation of some meaningless trophy spoke volumes.

    Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
    Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
    ROBBIE STEPHENSON
    England made the perfect start, scoring two tries and completely knocking New Zealand out of their stride. They swarmed all over them at close quarters and around the fringes and the 15-0 lead was nothing more than they deserved.

    The first try came after only two minutes when Brodie Retallick had failed to gather the kick-off. England rumbled on, won the ball from a solid scrummage, and then Sinckler and Itoje drove on powerfully. When the ball came back to Ben Youngs, he found Chris Ashton out wide and the prodigal wing cruised over in the corner.

    Soon after that England went driving on again. Sinckler was at the head of it and when the move faltered Owen Farrell fired over a drop goal for an 8-0 lead.

    The second England try was of huge significance in more ways than one. Elliot Daly gave the hosts an attacking lineout with a long kick, Itoje caught the ball and that almost extinct beast, the driving maul, was seen again on the fields of England. England drove on dynamically; two or three of the backs joined in and Dylan Hartley scored under the pile; Farrell’s conversion made it 15-0.

    England desperately needed to hang on until half-time and as New Zealand launched their best attacking move near the interval, they were holding out against frantic attacks launched by Barrett. Mark Wilson was eventually penalised for not rolling away and the All Blacks opted for the scrum. Ryan Crotty took the ball after the heel and made serious ground. The ball came back to Barrett, whose inside pass set up Damian McKenzie to score.

    The momentum swung further in New Zealand’s favour just before the interval, first when Farrell made a howler and put the restart out of play. From the resulting All Black attack on the stroke of half-time Barrett kicked a penalty. On 46 minutes with New Zealand now playing rapid rugby, Barrett dropped a goal to bring it back to 15-13.

    England desperately needed a fiery gesture and it came when Farrell opted to go for the drive from a lineout. The hosts made great ground and forced the All Blacks to concede a penalty and then they went for exactly the same play.

    The second effort also fell short when Sinckler knocked on and New Zealand could have scored a vital try when Ardie Savea looked in the clear only to drop the ball, showing that some of his attacking play was almost as bad as some of his defending. But by that stage they were 16-15 up courtesy of Barrett’s penalty.

    To their credit, and as they did against South Africa last week, England finished strongly and although they were handicapped by losing four lineouts, the likes of Jonny May and Danny Care were undaunted.

    So too was Underhill on his way to the line for his try. Barrett was the sole defender and oddly he turned his back. When he looked again he saw Underhill diving over, and Garces awarded the try.

    He did not hear the voice of the TMO wheedling over the communications system. Maybe someone should have turned him off at the mains.

    I'm 100% convinced the Walrus was stroking his own cock when he wrote that bit.

    You're of course assuming he has a cock.



  • @machpants said in England vs All Blacks:

    0_1541885587970_418afd58-eda5-4fc5-9c53-b4126ac8add8-image.jpeg

    A more perpendicular line, but the hind most foot is a few cm left, you can see it blurry between lawes legs and 17's arm

    Just wondering whether they take Lawes' right arm into consideration or do they just look at where his right foot is planted when deciding his position in relation to the ruck? I mean it's offside either way but he would be way offside if they measured it from where his right arm is.



  • @akan004 given that white line isnt at the last mans feet anyway...

    BUt I thought they changed the rule, was it this year or last year where your body is supposed to be behind the offside line (obviously not exactly policed very well) rather than just standing behind it?



  • @taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.



  • @akan004 but in both cases, any player or his own, it is to the left of the white line as you can see the English foot/arm on the ground to the left of Lawes' leg.

    @Stargazer posted the appropriate rule/law about 24 hours ago in this thread if you feel compelled ot seek it out 🙂

    Apparently this one is a tackle, not a ruck, so much for Garces to compute; off side, not off side, accidental off side, penalty no penalty, which one do I have deals on 🤯



  • @taniwharugby Yeah I saw Stargazer's post and I agree with it if it's deemed to be a tackle. Just wasn't sure if this was a tackle or a ruck. Seems like it's a tackle.

    Do you have any idea if they measure the offside from the offside line to where Lawes' right arm is or just his right foot? Cheers.



  • My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)

    Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....

    0_1541988636114_Lawes.JPG

    Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line



  • @jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.

    The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/108531380/england-totally-blew-chance-to-beat-all-blacks-says-clive-woodward



  • @mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.

    The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/108531380/england-totally-blew-chance-to-beat-all-blacks-says-clive-woodward

    Get fucked ,even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
    No one in their right mind will hire him as a coach now so he’s trying to make himself into some sort of comments man . Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.



  • @akan004 said in England vs All Blacks:

    Do you have any idea if they measure the offside from the offside line to where Lawes' right arm is or just his right foot? Cheers.

    Foot. Arms in the air mean nothing.



  • I haven't seen any link to GT12s write-up on the front page?

    It's an interesting read.

    https://www.thesilverfern.com/2018/11/11/phew-abs-escape-on-armistice-day/



  • Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.

    What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.

    For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.

    Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
    A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.

    SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.

    Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.

    Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.

    Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.



  • Actually, now that I post that and see how it links...

    I think I saw that yesterday on my phone, zoomed in on the bum, then scrolled down quickly (but naturally looking) as I realised my wife was over my shoulder .....



  • @akan004 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.

    One of the problems, at least from my armchair, is that the refs are giving a running commentary on the field - “hands off” “its a ruck” “back number 7”, motioning to players to get back on side etc etc.

    I’m not against communication between ref and players and helping the game flow, but I think it’s gone too far and on for too long. So as experimental changes and trials have occurred, the refs are talking more - not less.



  • @act-crusader said in England vs All Blacks:

    I’m not against communication between ref and players and helping the game flow, but I think it’s gone too far and on for too long. So as experimental changes and trials have occurred, the refs are talking more - not less.

    The last scrum of the match, a collapsed mess, and Garcess shouting at Underhill to stay bound and actually pushing him back to just a little bit less offside. Had me thinking "how did we get here?" Helicopter refs.



  • @rapido said in England vs All Blacks:

    My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)

    Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....

    0_1541988636114_Lawes.JPG

    Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line

    I’d love to know the formulas you used to ensure angles, measurements and scale were accounted for when drawing that yellow line on that 2D image



  • @act-crusader said in England vs All Blacks:

    @rapido said in England vs All Blacks:

    My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)

    Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....

    0_1541988636114_Lawes.JPG

    Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line

    I’d love to know the formulas you used to ensure angles, measurements and scale were accounted for when drawing that yellow line on that 2D image

    It's easy to do - draw numerous equally space perpendicular lines. Overlay and warp the corners so that they're pinned at the top (halfway line and 10m line crossing the touch line), adjust at other end so that the outside lines overlay the painted lines on the field.



  • He was fucking offside. There is no argument.



  • @rapido

    Hopefully 'interesting' includes 'good' in some way 🙂

    I had another rewatch of the first 20 odd minutes, and we really started poorly. We gave them possession in our half twice (BBBR drop, Taylor overthrow), and both times they scored points. On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.

    We missed some luck - if Dmac could have held the Barrett bomb (one of his only contestable kicks in the half), it would have been 8-7 after 16 minutes. Sadly, he dropped it.

    It's certainly true that our box kicks were poor, but during that first 20, almost all of the aimless kicks came from Barrett (SBW had one shocker). The missed penalty touch is also a bit unforgivable, given the state of the match. Other errors gave England the ball too - such as Ardie losing the ball in the tackle to Itoje, and I saw another bad line out - looked like a missed lift (by Franks or Read, I couldn't quite see who was meant to be jumping). With the scrum only holding its ground, I'd say that our set piece was actually another contributor to the poor start, and that's probably one reason why Taylor has got no MOTM votes - which is rare for him.



  • @pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:

    Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.

    What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.

    For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.

    Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
    A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.

    SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.

    Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.

    Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.

    Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.

    I seem to recall an earlier post where some wise person pointed out something similar.

    But but but favouritism, money, contracts, reputation and being expected to win the match on his own, as opposed to just being effective, a strong ball runner and hole puncher and defensive bulwark, means drop him from as great a height as possible.



  • @pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:

    Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.

    See comments above about Dubs. We fans write people off too early.



  • @booboo said in England vs All Blacks:

    @pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:

    Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.

    See comments above about Dubs. We fans write people off too early.

    Except when we refuse to accept that a guy is actually past it.

    See defenders of Julian Savea when it was clear he had lost his pace and was barely Super level.

    And, weirdly, the coaches with NMS.



  • The scrums weren't set properly all game. There was no engage and I think that helped the white team.
    I was screaming at the ref but in the second half he rebuked both front rows for not keeping a space, saying " you guys don't want to keep a gap".
    I'm a bit sympathetic (a bit) here because any decent scrum needs buy in from both teams but it really needed sorting out earlier.
    We missed a trick there but England held a steady scrum throughout.



  • @gt12 actually that missed penalty touch - isn't that just awful reffing? That ball was well out and was tapped in by someone who was out. I seem to recall they clarified the laws around ball in touch fairly recently - is this now allowed?



  • Conspiracy alert:

    No replay of the dodgy touchfinder described above by Bones

    No replay of the Read knock on under the sticks. As the scrum was being slowed down by a contact lens replacement or any other thing to slow the game down the Black team were querying the ref for a highshot.

    I think a knock on replay in front of the sticks with only minutes to go ain't bad broadcasting . Some game saving defence there.

    Replay? No effin way....



  • @booboo said in England vs All Blacks:

    @pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:

    Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.

    What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.

    For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.

    Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
    A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.

    SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.

    Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.

    Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.

    Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.

    I seem to recall an earlier post where some wise person pointed out something similar.

    But but but favouritism, money, contracts, reputation and being expected to win the match on his own, as opposed to just being effective, a strong ball runner and hole puncher and defensive bulwark, means drop him from as great a height as possible.

    If only Sonny was hole punching and running the ball strongly, then he wouldn’t be talked about.



  • @bones

    I’ll check it when I get home, but I thought it was a legit knock back due to a poor kick.



  • @nepia said in England vs All Blacks:

    the readers didn't want his drivel.

    Actually, his reputation among genuine Pom rugby supporters is that of being a complete and utter tosser. I just laugh at his ineptitude of his "analysis"



  • @taniwharugby said in England vs All Blacks:

    thems some bitter, bitter tears!

    Perhaps a Fern whiparound to send him a case of Hawkes Bay lemons? 😎



  • @Bones

    Law 18.2 c says you can jump from inside and throw it back regardless of whether they end up in touch afterward and regardless of whether the ball has crossed the plane. Has that one been changed?



  • @gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @Bones

    Law 18.2 c says you can jump from inside and throw it back regardless of whether they end up in touch afterward and regardless of whether the ball has crossed the plane. Has that one been changed?

    Ah hah, cheers! Still wouldn't have minded a replay, it looked tight. I think that's what's changed recently isn't it?



  • @mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.

    The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/108531380/england-totally-blew-chance-to-beat-all-blacks-says-clive-woodward

    Normally zone out when Woodward speaks but this time he was spot on.

    Poor onfield decision making.

    You can understand why they went for it, the second try showed NZ were unable to defend the driving maul.

    But critically that was the first half ABs.

    In the second half, NZ had changed personnel & tactics hence the comeback and England failing to score for close to 50 mins or so.

    And England had changed personnel too.

    Expecting the same outcome when different personnel for both sides are involved smacks of complete confidence, naivety or dare I say it arrogance.

    NZ adapted and evolved over the course of the 80 minutes.

    England did not.

    That was the difference IMHO.



  • @victor-meldrew said in England vs All Blacks:

    @taniwharugby said in England vs All Blacks:

    thems some bitter, bitter tears!

    Perhaps a Fern whiparound to send him a case of Hawkes Bay lemons? 😎

    Wait, do we grow lemons?



  • @jegga said in England vs All Blacks:

    Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.

    Fark me. That imagery just sent the muesli in my mouth all over the kitchen table.



  • @victor-meldrew said in England vs All Blacks:

    @jegga said in England vs All Blacks:

    Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.

    Fark me. That imagery just sent the muesli in my mouth all over the kitchen table.

    It’s good eh? I read it out to Mrs JC. She thought it was really mean and vicious. Then I showed her the picture and she just said “oh, yeah”.



  • @bones

    Watching it now. It's a misjudged kick with Barrett trying to get just a bit too much ground with not enough distance.

    The player just jumps out of play and throws it back according to law 18.2c



  • @gt12 chur!



  • @mikethesnow said in England vs All Blacks:

    @mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:

    @jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.

    The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/108531380/england-totally-blew-chance-to-beat-all-blacks-says-clive-woodward

    Normally zone out when Woodward speaks but this time he was spot on.

    Poor onfield decision making.

    You can understand why they went for it, the second try showed NZ were unable to defend the driving maul.

    But critically that was the first half ABs.

    In the second half, NZ had changed personnel & tactics hence the comeback and England failing to score for close to 50 mins or so.

    And England had changed personnel too.

    Expecting the same outcome when different personnel for both sides are involved smacks of complete confidence, naivety or dare I say it arrogance.

    NZ adapted and evolved over the course of the 80 minutes.

    England did not.

    That was the difference IMHO.

    Funny thing is that this is the opposite of what happened in the Eng v SA test. In that one England adapted the lineout defence to make it difficult for SA to remain dominant. If they thought the ABs were dumb enough to fall for the same trick used in that try (running sideways) then they really are naïve or arrogant.
    Also falling for the same issues they were happy to point the finger at us for. Namely goal kicking % (apparently our big weakness - even Woodentop still thinks Farrell is a 100% kicker) and not taking drop goals when they are on (pre game this was a sign of NZ arrogance, now it is a sign of English confidence)


Log in to reply