Has Hansen gone stale?



  • @bones said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @donsteppa said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    The “we were holding something back” argument is always nice wishful thinking, but often bollocks.

    I can’t easily remember the last time a team suddenly pulled off a triple scissors esque move for the first time ever in an RWC knockout game.

    That's simplifying things rather drastically isn't it? I don't think anyone talking about us holding something back is talking about dinky little scrum moves, being disingenuous there.

    Patterns, styles, players, combinations, etc. The confusing thing about the ABs over the past 2 years has been watching them cycle through several different periods within a game where they will completely dominate and then shift to doing something slightly different and look average. I think they're more likely to pull out bit parts to see how they can do them and their effect, knowing they can piece them together when required. I think that's where the ABs are lucky in that they've been that far ahead they have the ability to do this, whereas even if other teams are keeping their powder dry, they don't have as comfortable a leeway there.

    Players that have looked the goods have been used very little or not at all, yet have been kept close to camp.

    Even Coles has decided to not throw into a lineout properly, so that's obviously a tactic. Which takes the heat off Harris.

    I agree. I think the biggest pointer towards the whole "keeping your powder dry" thing (by the way, i think it is a terrible way to describe it) is the game plan/tactic the ABs pulled out against the Lions in the first test. The whole lead up to that game the talk was about how they had no answer to the rush defence. The ABs showed in that game that they clearly did. However, since then we have only seen that plan used for 10 minutes here 15 minutes there. That little period against England after Crotty came on was a good example.
    I don't believe for a second that the coaches or players have forgotten that gameplan. They have just put it away in their back pocket to try out other things so they have options and the other teams don't have hours of game footage to analyse and counter it.

    Anyway could be worse. We could be Australia and have lost 8 games this year with England still to come.



  • @nzzp said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @akan004 said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nzzp Agreed. I think our draw isn't perfect either because we have Italy as our last pool game. I watched their game against the wobs on the weekend and they look like a pretty physical team now. Would have been better if we had them earlier in the pool stages.

    I"m happy with Italy last. They want a physical game - makes it easier than going to the south of france during the repechage ...

    Yeah although an easy pool didn't effect us the last time.



  • @shadowtrooper said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    My English mate reckons Ireland have 1 big game in them every so often. Lets hope that was the game. By christ come RWC time I want us to be so dominant we will have all the other teams sat on their arses and crying for their mummies....

    Not a bad summary except that every so often is turning out to be about 4 times a year now.



  • @akan004 said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nzzp said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @akan004 said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nzzp Agreed. I think our draw isn't perfect either because we have Italy as our last pool game. I watched their game against the wobs on the weekend and they look like a pretty physical team now. Would have been better if we had them earlier in the pool stages.

    I"m happy with Italy last. They want a physical game - makes it easier than going to the south of france during the repechage ...

    Yeah although an easy pool didn't effect us the last time.

    We countered that though, by making it look difficult.



  • @majorrage said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @akan004 said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nzzp said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @akan004 said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nzzp Agreed. I think our draw isn't perfect either because we have Italy as our last pool game. I watched their game against the wobs on the weekend and they look like a pretty physical team now. Would have been better if we had them earlier in the pool stages.

    I"m happy with Italy last. They want a physical game - makes it easier than going to the south of france during the repechage ...

    Yeah although an easy pool didn't effect us the last time.

    We countered that though, by making it look difficult.

    Post-cup the team explained the poor early performances were down to a heavy training schedule. They tapered off in time to smash the frogs in the QF





  • Keeping powder dry? - I think there is a very small element of this. They have certainly been trialling different things for spells and taking note of what is effective and what isn't.
    It is interesting that the coaches keep referring to players' getting to grips with a new style' but there has not been any evidence of a 'new style' at all. Just lots of different things for short spells.
    I think there is also a case of seeing the plans these teams have against us. Where does Ireland go from here? They have found a way to win and will use it again. Now we just need to plot the way past that plan.
    I don't think they have been too cute, just playing to the edge and hoping to pull through. When our best players all have a shit day at the same time then it is a given that this plan won't work.

    I have my fingers crossed that Hansen has taken these risks as part of a grand plan. The plan may not work, but I think he realises that continuing to play a style of feeding off turnovers only lasts so long and that by RWC it will be dead.
    I will be interested to see what this eventual change will be. They have been periods where we have just bent the line one out and recycled but I don't think that is the real answer. Ireland showed how they could shut that down well.
    We will still have an advantage of transition play that teams like Ireland and England don't have. It isn't instinctive in their bread and butter rugby and the players don't grow up doing it. Those hundredths of seconds deciding to make an unexpected pass or see an opportunity before it happens will still be a strength, we just can't rely on those turnovers against low risk taking teams.

    The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko. It was like someone had slipped them all a sedative. Was very unusual.



  • @crucial not to mention missing Moody & Cane, 2 guys that do alot of defensive work, with the latter possibly being missed more than we realise despite Ardie playing the house down in his looser role.



  • @taniwharugby You are almost always going to be missing some top players - weren't Ireland missing about 4 of their top side (similarly England the week prior)?



  • @kiwimurph not using them as an excuse, the Irish played bloody well and deserved to win, but these are things that contributed to how we played.

    Who's to say had they had thier 'top players' playing things would have panned out the same and one of them may have had an off day...sliding doors and all.



  • @crucial said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko.

    How on earth did Reiko make that list? He was a threat every time he got the ball, which was usually in traffic, and he just didn't get the ball often.



  • @mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.

    I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.

    He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well, when he's not injured.



  • The keeping the powder dry argument is a crock. You can hold back certain plays without the team looking like a bunch of muppets who have never met each other before. I'm really troubled how a bunch of senior players could all collectively play so bloody badly. One guy having an off day, it happens. Two yeah, ok. But we had five or six. Considering a massive squad was sent away to counteract the fatigue issue, it was alarming to see so many players ambling about. Fitness has always been our thing.

    I dunno. Maybe there has been too much experimentation. Especially with the backline and the constantly rotating midfield/first five who really wants to be a fullback/out of sorts starting halfback. We just really seem out of balance, not creating space, not bashing it up, not retaining possession.



  • @victor-meldrew said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.

    I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.

    He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well. when he's not injured.

    For me the defining test of his career is the second test against the Lions.



  • @no-quarter I think we were looking very sharp with the SBW/Crotty mid-field for the Lions, until Crotty got injured and next test SBW got sent off.

    We were making big in roads into the rush defence then, so maybe this is why Hansen is so persistent with SBW as he feels he is the key to unlocking it? Shame his body is probably about 2 years too late for that.



  • I am now at the anger stage. If we have a pattern of play that beats Ireland on the weekend, and deliberately didn't do it enough to win the game, then i am fucking furious. If it was shelved to keep it up our sleeves for next year then i am apoplectic.

    That's why I have decided it's bullshit. No coach is that arrogant that they can just ignore the central part of his job, winning tests, for the goal of winning more tests next year. And if he is allowed to with the backing of the NZRU, then i want everyone involved in that process fired.



  • @mariner4life what if the powder dry 'alley' is in that we had stuff we were trying to achieve in order to unleash these masterful moves that would wow the world, but cos our kicking was shite and we coudlnt catch, we were unable to get ourselves in a position to unleash/try this magical moves? 😆

    We just coudnt execute whatever ever it was they were trying to do, so whethe ror not we had extras up our sleeve, we lost.



  • @taniwharugby said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life what if the powder dry 'alley' is in that we had stuff we were trying to achieve in order to unleash these masterful moves that would wow the world, but cos our kicking was shite and we coudlnt catch, we were unable to get ourselves in a position to unleash/try this magical moves? 😆

    When you guys are talking about the "powder" you aren't talking about moves are you? If you are, then we are talking about different shit.



  • @mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.



  • @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.

    see, i don't see it that way. We didn't look like the better team on the weekend, so i don't see it as "a plan to beat Ireland". It couldn't beat the Lions who used much the same tactics, and it didn't win on the weekend. We had maybe 10 minutes in the ascendency on the weekend, and got nothing for it because key players panicked or made errors under pressure. So if the plan is "hope those same guys don't fuck it up next time like they have the last two" that doesn't fill me with confidence.

    The keys to beating the ABs have been the same for how many years now? Heat on the rucks; rush on defense to take away time; make your tackles; cut out the aimless kicks. It's still the key now. How is that possible?



  • @mariner4life Fair enough, I lean more towards we're good enough but we're fucking up (the Lions series is a bit of a french red herring for me). The other option is we're just getting beaten by better teams, if that's the case then I'll have to join team ...

    alt text

    ... which I've been resisting so far. 🙂



  • @mariner4life totally dominated for 70 mins and still only lost by 7?

    I share some of your views too, and wonder if Hansen has reached the end of the line a year or so too early, but I do honestly think we were a bit of luck and better execution of some basics and beating the Irish, question is would this have simply papered over cracks or given the boost we needed for this slightly different game plan?



  • @nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.

    My point is, the result is secondary to what i have seen on the field this year. There are concerns all over our park, with a whole heap of unanswered questions. If the Irish test was the only blip on the year you could probably make a few claims around tired/luck/off day.

    But when you add it to last weeks performance, the loss to the Boks in Wellington, the first 50 minutes to the Boks away, and yes, even the Lions, then there should be at least a few alarm bells. That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.



  • I don't think anyone has been keeping the powder dry - that's straw clutching.

    I do think Ireland are a bloody good side with a number of players that are currently the best in their position, brimming with confidence and extremely well coached.

    I also believe that this was one tough game too far for a lot of the players - not just physically but mentally.

    We are also nowhere near as dominant now as we were during the last WC cycle - results notwithstanding. This side simply isn't as good as the 2015 one.

    There are also some critical form issues that have been obvious for quite some time.

    EOYT for both hemispheres are far from a level playing field. The only time you truly get a measure of how everyone stacks up is at a RWC.

    We do look stale but I think that is down to all the factors above more than our form falling off a cliff as it did in 90/91.

    Ireland are a bloody good side and did to us what we normally do to others. Still both sides were out on their feet and we could have stolen a thoroughly undeserved victory. I don't think the likes of BBBR will play as poorly again so plenty to work on but I'm firmly in the glass half full camp.

    Plus the Black Caps won overnight so it would be churlish to be too negative



  • @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.



  • @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.

    I don't think that (yet), but some of the comments on various threads since the game suggest others do.



  • @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.

    2014/15 is giving Stevo a heap of rope isn't it? So lets hope behind closed doors he does know what he's doing.

    I still fucking hate playing shit rugby in pursuit of some future goal. A 3rd World Cup means less to me than putting teams back in their box.



  • @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.

    2014/15 is giving Stevo a heap of rope isn't it? So lets hope behind closed doors he does know what he's doing.

    I still fucking hate playing shit rugby in pursuit of some future goal. A 3rd World Cup means less to me than putting teams back in their box.

    I guess for me, living through that late 90s early 00s era I've never got back to we should win every match by right so the losses don't hurt as much as they use to, I didn't even break anything at the final whistle. Don't get me wrong, as good as Hansen has been he's still the guy who let Ireland bust through the door and get their first wins so he's at least looking at 5 years hard labour when he steps down.



  • @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.

    2014/15 is giving Stevo a heap of rope isn't it? So lets hope behind closed doors he does know what he's doing.

    I still fucking hate playing shit rugby in pursuit of some future goal. A 3rd World Cup means less to me than putting teams back in their box.

    I guess for me, living through that late 90s early 00s era I've never got back to we should win every match by right so the losses don't hurt as much as they use to, I didn't even break anything at the final whistle. Don't get me wrong, as good as Hansen has been he's still the guy who let Ireland bust through the door and get their first wins so he's at least looking at 5 years hard labour when he steps down.

    rugby results for games i watch not play don't affect my mood one bit. If they do then maybe you need more in your life.



  • @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.

    2014/15 is giving Stevo a heap of rope isn't it? So lets hope behind closed doors he does know what he's doing.

    I still fucking hate playing shit rugby in pursuit of some future goal. A 3rd World Cup means less to me than putting teams back in their box.

    I guess for me, living through that late 90s early 00s era I've never got back to we should win every match by right so the losses don't hurt as much as they use to, I didn't even break anything at the final whistle. Don't get me wrong, as good as Hansen has been he's still the guy who let Ireland bust through the door and get their first wins so he's at least looking at 5 years hard labour when he steps down.

    rugby results for games i watch not play don't affect my mood one bit. If they do then maybe you need more in your life.

    I had a lot more going on in my life back when lost games did affect my mood.

    Any way we all use this place as therapy so there's no need to have affected moods in the real world.



  • I feel super-shitty depressed the ABs lost to a very good Ireland side, but not yet ready to jump off the bridge or hide the razor blades. It’s a loss. Learn from it; move ahead.

    Wasn’t that long ago that an undefeated AB side that included BBBR, Whitelock, Read and even McCaw required a MIRACLE to beat Ireland in Dublin in November, 2013. That miracle might have papered over some deficiencies then, too, but we were mostly elated and didn’t talk too much about what a has-been Hansen was, and we even bounced back and won another World Cup title. I really don’t see any reason we can’t do it again. Sure, we’re not as dominant as we’d like to be, and maybe that loss if going to feel like a sharp rock under the towel at the beach all summer. But we’re at least as good as anybody else, and more likely better than them all. If other teams want to believe the ABs are shot, let them.



  • @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    @mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.

    Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.

    I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.

    2014/15 is giving Stevo a heap of rope isn't it? So lets hope behind closed doors he does know what he's doing.

    I still fucking hate playing shit rugby in pursuit of some future goal. A 3rd World Cup means less to me than putting teams back in their box.

    I guess for me, living through that late 90s early 00s era I've never got back to we should win every match by right so the losses don't hurt as much as they use to, I didn't even break anything at the final whistle. Don't get me wrong, as good as Hansen has been he's still the guy who let Ireland bust through the door and get their first wins so he's at least looking at 5 years hard labour when he steps down.

    It depends what stage of life you are at I think. Like you, the early 00s era, the longer we went not winning the RWC, there was a time when I lived and died on each game. That culminated with our shock loss in 2007 and led me to the Fern (thank goodness!!). Once we won in 2011, it felt like that moment the character from Fever Pitch (Nick Hornby) experienced, when Arsenal finally won a title all of his angst flew away. 2015 was an even bigger hit, we have truly been spoiled over the last 7 years. There are some fans out there who have no idea what it was like losing in cruel and excruciating ways to Gregan/Larkham/Eales, and choking like dogs at RWCs 1995, 1999, 2003 and 2007



  • 2011 was cathartic for me. Going back to back in 2015 made me as happy as Test rugby could. If we do the three-peat in 2019, I'd suggest the RWC could be irrevocably damaged.



  • @antipodean said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    2011 was cathartic for me. Going back to back in 2015 made me as happy as Test rugby could. If we do the three-peat in 2019, I'd suggest the RWC could be irrevocably damaged.

    Let it burn 🙂



  • So thinking about strategies. Barret's first two drop goals of his AB career occurred..maybe unnecessarily...in the last 2 games. That to me seems like a deliberate tactic, get some practice nailing drop goals in a tight game in a hostile environment.



  • @rembrandt said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    So thinking about strategies. Barret's first two drop goals of his AB career occurred..maybe unnecessarily...in the last 2 games. That to me seems like a deliberate tactic, get some practice nailing drop goals in a tight game in a hostile environment.

    Except the Saffa game fit a bit better than these two - after the buzzer drop goal to win game - get back in the pocket, everyone knows its on, take the pressure kick. These were under penalty advantage, so there was really no pressure.



  • @rembrandt said in Has Hansen gone stale?:

    So thinking about strategies. Barret's first two drop goals of his AB career occurred..maybe unnecessarily...in the last 2 games. That to me seems like a deliberate tactic, get some practice nailing drop goals in a tight game in a hostile environment.

    Absolutely. CF Snr was at the Tin and watched the SA test that we lost. He reckoned that we could have taken a penalty kick and hung on with defence for the last couple of minutes but we went for a try instead. It almost feels like they are using some games as live ammo training sessions



  • @antipodean i SAID ELSEWHERE us winning next year may not be the best thing for the tournament, maybe thats why the fish heads are trying to create another tournament, played in the NH to try and negate some of our dominance!

    2011 was huge...prior to it, I was never fussed by the RWC, only just being a teen when we won it first time, but I downed half a bottle of JD's in the 1st half of that final, and didnt touch a drop the 2nd half!

    I still dont think the RWC is the be all and end all and dont like how matches in between are seen as development type matches with the RWC the focus...but it is what it is, just like some of the daft rules we have now, deal with it.



  • Ireland had to wait over 100 years to beat us. Let all of them wait I say 😉



  • @act-crusader Yep. Not a Foster fan and not sure if he is the problem. Seemed like a good person to blame but we are a little stale.


Log in to reply