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    NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity'

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    • Rembrandt
      Rembrandt last edited by

      This might need to go into 'Politics', kinda cuts directly between the two.

      Sad to see this sort of cancer working its way through everything. When your entire being, your history, views, life experiences and qualifications for a job can be summarised simply by the pigment of your skin then you've just institutionalised actual racism.

      While 2016 and 2018 saw Farah Palmer and Sir Michael Jones elected to NZR's board, Wednesday's 2019 annual general meeting saw three middle-aged white men either elected and reappointed.
      And they weren't even close to adding more diversity to the board, with the two provincial candidates put forward both cut from the same cloth.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/112116109/new-zealand-rugbys-board-no-closer-to-diversity-target-after-wednesdays-agm

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • taniwharugby
        taniwharugby last edited by taniwharugby

        with Tew supposedly retiring at the end of the year, hard to see Raelene Castle having a crack with this Folau thing on her resume...best to just get best person for the job, male or female, or I guess identifying as Australian if needs must.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • antipodean
          antipodean last edited by

          Why does it require diversity? Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs?

          Nepia 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
          • Siam
            Siam last edited by

            Never any polling the public for these superficial diversity measures.

            Not suggesting NZRU should poll people when deciding the make up of boards, more the diversity beats experience and knowledge principle so prevalent today.

            It's like I've woken up one day and it's been universally endorsed as a world truth, and just live with it regardless what the silent majority thinks.

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Nepia
              Nepia @antipodean last edited by

              @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

              Why does it require diversity? Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs?

              It’s not zero sum.

              The most recent “diverse” additions actually have a lot of nous - MJ is a former AB and business owner I think (along with being a PI and a geographer?) and Farah Palmer is a 3 time RWC winner and lecturer in Sports Management.

              antipodean Rembrandt 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
              • antipodean
                antipodean @Nepia last edited by

                @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                Why does it require diversity? Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs?

                It’s not zero sum.

                I didn't suggest it was - the point it the article is implying they aren't doing enough to make the board diverse, as if it should magically represent the makeup of the population.

                The most recent “diverse” additions actually have a lot of nous - MJ is a former AB and business owner I think (along with being a PI and a geographer?) and Farah Palmer is a 3 time RWC winner and lecturer in Sports Management.

                There on their merits, not because one tans better and the other wore bras.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • Rembrandt
                  Rembrandt @Nepia last edited by

                  @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                  @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                  Why does it require diversity? Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs?

                  It’s not zero sum.

                  The most recent “diverse” additions actually have a lot of nous - MJ is a former AB and business owner I think (along with being a PI and a geographer?) and Farah Palmer is a 3 time RWC winner and lecturer in Sports Management.

                  Exactly, it's demeaning to say that these additions didn't make it on merit but on pigment and having the correct genitalia and that is what this push implies.

                  It's a running joke at my work right now (large tech company), with male managers leaving and replaced with female managers..merit or genitalia.. hard to say when you have publicly announced targets based on immutable characteristics.

                  Why not diversity targets on height? weight? How about household income during childhood? Aversion to pineapple on pizza? Political persuasion?

                  The religion of diversity determines that your entire being can be adequately described by your skin pigment, your genitalia, what you pretend your genitalia is or who you want to fuck. Everything else about you is secondary.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                  • Nepia
                    Nepia last edited by

                    @antipodean @Rembrandt TBH, I actually don’t understand why this is an issue other than ‘culture wars’? (So thought I best reply now before this gets moved to the Politics section).

                    Not every push for change is culture wars or the erosion of one group’s standing in society. Diversity can improve an organisation and I assume NZR feels it will help improve theirs.

                    I work for an organisation that could have an entire BoD of one culture, but it’s not because they feel it would lock them into one type of thinking and they feel diverse backgrounds and ideas are actually beneficial when directing the business. Also, another example of this is the better iwi organisations who have diverse boards on their commercial arms for the same reasons.

                    What is the issue with a Board slightly more representative of the population when they’re selected on merit?

                    @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                    I didn't suggest it was

                    My response was based on this line Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs? which implied, in my reading of it, that they weren't there on merit.

                    @Rembrandt said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                    When your entire being, your history, views, life experiences and qualifications for a job can be summarised simply by the pigment of your skin then you've just institutionalised actual racism.

                    I think you're overlooking the fact that the bold highlights diversity, is diversity ... not just pigmentation. I think that's the difference NZR wants.

                    Rancid Schnitzel antipodean 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
                    • Rancid Schnitzel
                      Rancid Schnitzel @Nepia last edited by

                      @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                      @antipodean @Rembrandt TBH, I actually don’t understand why this is an issue other than ‘culture wars’? (So thought I best reply now before this gets moved to the Politics section).

                      Not every push for change is culture wars or the erosion of one group’s standing in society. Diversity can improve an organisation and I assume NZR feels it will help improve theirs.

                      I work for an organisation that could have an entire BoD of one culture, but it’s not because they feel it would lock them into one type of thinking and they feel diverse backgrounds and ideas are actually beneficial when directing the business. Also, another example of this is the better iwi organisations who have diverse boards on their commercial arms for the same reasons.

                      What is the issue with a Board slightly more representative of the population when they’re selected on merit?

                      @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                      I didn't suggest it was

                      My response was based on this line Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs? which implied, in my reading of it, that they weren't there on merit.

                      @Rembrandt said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                      When your entire being, your history, views, life experiences and qualifications for a job can be summarised simply by the pigment of your skin then you've just institutionalised actual racism.

                      I think you're overlooking the fact that the bold highlights diversity, is diversity ... not just pigmentation. I think that's the difference NZR wants.

                      That may be what NZR wants but is it what the article was referring to? Doubt it.

                      Nepia 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Nepia
                        Nepia @Rancid Schnitzel last edited by

                        @Rancid-Schnitzel said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                        That may be what NZR wants but is it what the article was referring to? Doubt it.

                        You expect me to read the articles now? That's anti the ethos of the Fern!!! 😉

                        Nah, I read the article, it was quite confusing and the writer seemed want to cross story lines between diversity and general governance structures in parts - TBH, my posting on the thread was more a response to @Rembrandt and @antipodean's discussions than the article itself.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                        • C
                          Cactus Jack last edited by

                          All this inclusive , feel good crap really pisses me off . Appointing anyone to any position based on anything other than merit is utter bollocks . Personally I would hate the thought that the people I worked with thought I hadn't earned my place .

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                          • Kirwan
                            Kirwan last edited by

                            @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                            What is the issue with a Board slightly more representative of the population when they’re selected on merit?

                            It shouldn't even be a factor IMO, it should just be on merit alone. If that means the best candidate is a woman, or black, or gay should make no difference.

                            Also means if the best candidate is a white guy over 50, also no problem.

                            As soon as you start filtering candidates by physical characteristics like skin colour or sex, you are no longer selecting on merit. The key is make sure you get a wide range of candidates, and not exclude anybody, and then pick the best person for the job.

                            Nepia barbarian 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 7
                            • jegga
                              jegga last edited by

                              I think there should be a spot on the board for people who lacked any talent at the game and like to get drunk watching test matches. I'd be a shoe in i reckon , perhaps a tad over qualified if I'm being honest.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 9
                              • Nepia
                                Nepia @Kirwan last edited by

                                @Kirwan I think one of NZRs issues is they feel they’re not getting that wide range of candidates.

                                Kirwan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Kirwan
                                  Kirwan @Nepia last edited by

                                  @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                  @Kirwan I think one of NZRs issues is they feel they’re not getting that wide range of candidates.

                                  And I have no problem with them addressing that issue. I do have an issue with them being judged on the diversity they select on the board, however, as it's a meaningless metric.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                  • barbarian
                                    barbarian @Kirwan last edited by

                                    @Kirwan said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                    It shouldn't even be a factor IMO, it should just be on merit alone. If that means the best candidate is a woman, or black, or gay should make no difference.

                                    I don't necessarily disagree, though I think the background of candidates is relevant and being a woman/black/whatever can make a candidate more suitable for a role.

                                    I think it's really pertinent to Board structures, where ultimately you want a diverse range of viewpoints and experiences around the table.

                                    I'm critical of the Rugby Australia Board because I think it's dominated by white privately schooled men from Sydney or Brisbane. Considering the high number of people from non-Anglo backgrounds playing our game, or people from outside Sydney/Brisbane, I think it would be wise for them to look outside this narrow demographic.

                                    A popular (and accurate) critique of RA is they only act in the interests of a narrow group of people on the Eastern Seaboard, without much regard for the rest of the country. When you look at the Board, it's hard not to see why those decisions have been made in that way.

                                    Kirwan Rancid Schnitzel 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • antipodean
                                      antipodean @Nepia last edited by

                                      @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                      @antipodean @Rembrandt TBH, I actually don’t understand why this is an issue other than ‘culture wars’? (So thought I best reply now before this gets moved to the Politics section).

                                      Not every push for change is culture wars or the erosion of one group’s standing in society. Diversity can improve an organisation and I assume NZR feels it will help improve theirs.

                                      I work for an organisation that could have an entire BoD of one culture, but it’s not because they feel it would lock them into one type of thinking and they feel diverse backgrounds and ideas are actually beneficial when directing the business. Also, another example of this is the better iwi organisations who have diverse boards on their commercial arms for the same reasons.

                                      What is the issue with a Board slightly more representative of the population when they’re selected on merit?

                                      @antipodean said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                      I didn't suggest it was

                                      My response was based on this line Who wants people without an understanding of rugby and commercial nous on the board ffs? which implied, in my reading of it, that they weren't there on merit.

                                      @Rembrandt said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                      When your entire being, your history, views, life experiences and qualifications for a job can be summarised simply by the pigment of your skin then you've just institutionalised actual racism.

                                      I think you're overlooking the fact that the bold highlights diversity, is diversity ... not just pigmentation. I think that's the difference NZR wants.

                                      I think you're having an argument of your own invention. Nothing I've said is against the concept of greater diversity on boards. In fact quite the opposite. There's strong evidence that gender diversity in boards is tied to financial performance, it is generally profitable after accounting for change and that it can reduce securities fraud for example.

                                      I believe executive positions should be merit based and that given the choice if two candidates are the same, why wouldn't you elect to take one that increases the possibilities that they look at problems and hence solutions from different perspectives. The greatest threat to companies is group think.

                                      My point was to the quote:

                                      While 2016 and 2018 saw Farah Palmer and Sir Michael Jones elected to NZR's board, Wednesday's 2019 annual general meeting saw three middle-aged white men either elected and reappointed.

                                      And they weren't even close to adding more diversity to the board, with the two provincial candidates put forward both cut from the same cloth.

                                      Nepia 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • Kirwan
                                        Kirwan @barbarian last edited by

                                        @barbarian That viewport works if all white people think the same and all brown people think the same. Again, look for the best candidate based on competance. If the school/background is relevant then include that in the criteria for selection.

                                        antipodean barbarian 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • antipodean
                                          antipodean @Kirwan last edited by

                                          @Kirwan said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                          @barbarian That viewport works if all white people think the same and all brown people think the same.

                                          That's the disturbing aspect of the article, the assumption that your viewpoint is predetermined by physical characteristics outside of your control.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                          • barbarian
                                            barbarian @Kirwan last edited by

                                            @Kirwan Agreed, though I think it's less about 'thinking the same' and more about being closer to specific communities and more in touch on specific issues.

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • Nepia
                                              Nepia @antipodean last edited by

                                              @antipodean So we basically agree then? But you didn’t link to that specific quote so how was I supposed to know you weren’t just blanket dismissing all diversity as without merit?

                                              antipodean 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                              • antipodean
                                                antipodean @Nepia last edited by

                                                @Nepia said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                                @antipodean So we basically agree then? But you didn’t link to that specific quote so how was I supposed to know you weren’t just blanket dismissing all diversity as without merit?

                                                Yeah, fair point there's enough ambiguity in my original post because of the lack of context to make the inference you did.

                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                • No Quarter
                                                  No Quarter last edited by

                                                  Think you guys have found a good middle ground. I don't think most people are inheritly against diversity, it's just when organisations set or are set targets regardless of who applies when problems arise. Everybody loses there; some people may miss out on jobs despite being the strongest candidate, while others may not want to be promoted based on things they have no control over. Not to mention the situation where people are questioning appointments because of publicly stated targets.

                                                  There are lots of areas with an imbalance which is caused by factors that go way deeper than just discrimination, especially when it comes to men and women. A lot of these targets are simply unattainable

                                                  I've no problem with NZR casting the net wide, that's good to see, but we really need to make sure that heirarchies in our society are based on merit as much as possible.

                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                                                  • N
                                                    Nevorian last edited by

                                                    How diverse is Netball New Zealand Board? maybe they should swap or amalgamate with NZRFU to sure up this diversity thing?

                                                    jegga 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                    • jegga
                                                      jegga @Nevorian last edited by

                                                      @Nevorian said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                                      How diverse is Netball New Zealand Board? maybe they should swap or amalgamate with NZRFU to sure up this diversity thing?

                                                      I’d say they are bracing themselves for the issue of blokes wanting to play in women’s teams that must surely be coming their way.

                                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                                      • Rancid Schnitzel
                                                        Rancid Schnitzel @barbarian last edited by

                                                        @barbarian said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                                        @Kirwan said in NZ Rugby Board representational 'diversity':

                                                        It shouldn't even be a factor IMO, it should just be on merit alone. If that means the best candidate is a woman, or black, or gay should make no difference.

                                                        I don't necessarily disagree, though I think the background of candidates is relevant and being a woman/black/whatever can make a candidate more suitable for a role.

                                                        I think it's really pertinent to Board structures, where ultimately you want a diverse range of viewpoints and experiences around the table.

                                                        I'm critical of the Rugby Australia Board because I think it's dominated by white privately schooled men from Sydney or Brisbane. Considering the high number of people from non-Anglo backgrounds playing our game, or people from outside Sydney/Brisbane, I think it would be wise for them to look outside this narrow demographic.

                                                        A popular (and accurate) critique of RA is they only act in the interests of a narrow group of people on the Eastern Seaboard, without much regard for the rest of the country. When you look at the Board, it's hard not to see why those decisions have been made in that way.

                                                        I would agree to an extent, but the issue is more the schools or clubs they played for and socio-economic background rather than the colour of their skin. I doubt having private school educated non-anglos or women will make any difference. It's not like Dilip Kumar's reign as CEO was a resounding success.

                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                        • rotated
                                                          rotated last edited by rotated

                                                          I have kind of enjoyed the move to merit based appointments over the past 20 years after they moved away from heavy provincial bias and horse-trading. I think it's coincided with a good period of success. I would need to see a compelling case to move away from appointing people based on merit.

                                                          FWIW for the virtue signallers I believe the NZRU can lay claim to two female board members as Andrew Goolightly identified as a nun on the 1996 Springbok tour.

                                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                          • N
                                                            Nevorian last edited by

                                                            I think with Womens Rugby becoming more prominent now than what it was say 10 years ago we will more than likely see more women get involved on the administration side of things up to Board level and I am sure this will be a good thing if they have the right rugby credentials. We want people who have lived and breathed rugby all of their lives and have a bit of nous upstairs to be running the sport

                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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