Hurricanes 2020



  • @Chris Thanks. I knew I was forgetting someone, but couldn't remember who!!



  • @Stargazer said in Hurricanes 2020:

    The recruitment in which position is the most urgent?
    I think the main needs for us going into 2020 is a quality experienced loosehead (if T Smith decides to move on), an experienced first five (still not sold on JGB/FS) and a more skillful backfield player - someone like Connor Garden-Bachop looks the goods from what I've seen. Hopefully he puts his hand up during the NPC. The last and obvious position that we need depth in is halfback. Perenara is our obvious starter but if we can get someone like Fakatava back from the Highlanders, we should be looking okay there.
    Who of the players of the initial 2019 squad would you like to see signed for 2020 (or longer)?
    Isaia Walker-Leawere needs to be snapped up asap. You feel it's not a matter of if, but a matter of when, when referring to his A.B credentials. The others are obviously the Barrett brothers.
    Who of the players that played in 2019, but weren't in the initial squad, would you like to see signed for 2020 (or longer)?
    Peter Umaga Jensen - he can cover a number of positions - young, big, strong, fast and has the potential to be the Hurricane's long term 13.
    Which other player, who hasn't played for the Hurricanes in 2019, would be on your wish list?
    Probably Folau Fakatava or Lincoln McLutchie.
    Which player, who hasn't been signed yet, but played for the Hurricanes in 2019, don't you want to be signed?
    I would of said Finlay Christie but he is off to the Blues, so I am happy in that regard.

    Our strongest 23 would probably look something like this next year:

    1. Smith 2. Coles 3. Lomax 4. Scrafton 5. Walker-Leawere 6. Blackwell 7. Savea 8. Evans 9. Perenara 10. JGB/FS 11. Goosen 12. Laumape 13. Umaga-Jensen 14. Aso 15. Barrett Reserves: 16. Aumua 17. Numia 18. Fidow 19. Le'uapepe 20. Fifita 21. ? 22. JGB/FS 23. Proctor/Lowe/Toala


  • @Canes4life

    You don't get to make fun of Reuben Thorne anymore.



  • At 6, I'd rather take Fifita than Blackwell.



  • @cgrant said in Hurricanes 2020:

    At 6, I'd rather take Fifita than Blackwell.

    Possibly too short for blindside too



  • I have it on good oil that Jordies signed for the Crusaders next year



  • @mikey07 said in Hurricanes 2020:

    I have it on good oil that Jordies signed for the Crusaders next year

    If the Crusaders get Ofa (?) as well, they are going to be a reasonably decent team next year which will make a pleasant same



  • @Hooroo Thats going to make it a pleasant surprise 😂



  • @mikey07 I have been hearing that for a while
    No idea if it’s true maybe you have better intel



  • @mikey07 said in Hurricanes 2020:

    I have it on good oil that Jordies signed for the Crusaders next year

    I'm going to laugh if he gets stuck behind Havili at 15, Goodhue at 12, and Ennor at 13.

    However, if that leads to Ennor (23) wanting to come to the Chiefs, I'll be happy as...



  • @gt12 said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @mikey07 said in Hurricanes 2020:

    I have it on good oil that Jordies signed for the Crusaders next year

    I'm going to laugh if he gets stuck behind Havili at 15, Goodhue at 12, and Ennor at 13.

    However, if that leads to Ennor (23) wanting to come to the Chiefs, I'll be happy as...

    He'll be our starting 12 next year, Goodhue too valuable at 13.

    The Barrett/ Goodhue midfield was unstoppable for Lincoln a few years ago and they combined pretty well for Canterbury too. I've heard Razor say that Jordie will come back at some stage and he considers 12 his best position.

    He wont get "stuck" behind anyone..... it's a long season and as you've seen his year, Ennor will get plenty of opportunities at 13/14. There's enough games that you don't start the same players week after week. That's the reason Will Jordan stayed.



  • @Chris I had also but got it reinforced from a source today



  • @mikey07 Must be pretty good oil Then, I heard it from within Rugby circles as well.And they would have been different sources.



  • @SammyC my source said that’s exactly where he wants to play he’s not going to get it stuck behind Laumape I personally believe he’s wasted in the midfield. I think we’re going to be a little light there next year.



  • What a cop out if he goes to the Crusaders. How boring would this competition be if the Canes lose Beaudy and Jordie.



  • @Canes4life Its looking very likely the canes will lose both.



  • @Canes4life Time to give some exciting young talent an opportunity. Nothing boring about that. Personally, I can't wait to see how Toala goes.

    You've gained Lomax. You lose some, you gain some.



  • I like the Look of Toala I think he's a great signing.



  • @Stargazer yeah because it’s so exciting seeing Canterbury win all the time. By the looks of their crowds even Cantabs are getting bored of it. The Jordie signing (if it eventuates) just points out the need for change. On one end you have the Landers losing 13 players and on the other end you have the Crusaders over-stacked in the backs. IMO it’s better for the comp, you can hardly call it Super Rugby anymore when some teams are stacked and some teams have barely any depth apart from a couple of promising 19 year olds. Will be suprised to see it happen.



  • @Canes4life The Canes don't seem to lose many players, unlike some other franchises. They are stacked with good midfielders and outside backs themselves. Apart from Lomax, you've also gained Scrafton. Main problem is the halves. You're whining too much. The Canes will be good again next season. If you're in doubt, read back some of your own very confident posts on the Fern from recent weeks.



  • @Canes4life

    I think it’s fine. Players take the risk of competing for spots and not getting to show their wares. On the other hand, being part of a successful team often helps you develop and doesn’t seem to harm AB selection - although that seems to be changing - TTT hasn’t had many runs, and he’s paid for it by being skipped over.

    I do think the Saders are better at giving their players plenty of opportunities, but at some point they’ll have to much talent to get them all out there.

    I wonder what Havili is thinking?



  • @Stargazer i’m not just talking about the Canes. I’m pointing out the fact that there is a massive imbalance in this competition and it’s becoming far too predictable. I’m not sure about you but I’d rather watch a Highlanders vs Crusaders game without a predictable outcome.



  • @Canes4life Maybe we could offer one of there promising younger players a contract 😂



  • @mikey07 they’ve all been signed up haven’t they?



  • @Canes4life I'm not sure you're realising how many players the Crusaders are losing, but yes, the Highlanders are losing many, but mostly to Japan. The imbalance isn't created by the Crusaders contracting players from outside. They have most of their players coming through their academy - and - remember - Reece wasn't wanted by any other franchise. Jordie came to the Canes from Canterbury and Crusaders academy as well. If you want the imbalance to disappear, then other franchises should be better at talent identification and development. I think the Canes are doing pretty well, but can do better. Chiefs, too, I think. The Highlanders have been good in contracting over the years, but probably not sufficiently in developing. The Blues problems are known. The problem isn't with the Crusaders.



  • @Stargazer If players are going to be switching teams all the time then why not introduce trades. Wouldn’t that prevent one team being too stacked in one area. Atm having Havili, Reece, Jordan, Barrett, Goodhue, Bridge & Ennor in one team seems fairly silly and surely one player isn’t going to be happy with lack of game time when they are on the cusp of being an All Black.



  • Not sure how trades would work given almost all the player moves happen when players end their contracts? The fact that all the franchises have the same amount of money to spend on players should mean that they are all relatively as strong as each other over time. The issue is that some teams are better at identifying talent and then value adding. This comes down to coaching, administration and culture. Also success tends to beget success and young players are prepared to play for less money if they think their careers will be advanced.

    I'm not sure that it's possible to make the cultures of different organisations more equal through policies. The fact that the Crusaders spend roughly the same amount on players as the other NZ teams, yet are playing for their 10th title, suggests that culture plays a huge role in the success of an organisation.



  • @Cantab79 said in Hurricanes 2020:

    Not sure how trades would work given almost all the player moves happen when players end their contracts? The fact that all the franchises have the same amount of money to spend on players should mean that they are all relatively as strong as each other over time. The issue is that some teams are better at identifying talent and then value adding. This comes down to coaching, administration and culture. Also success tends to beget success and young players are prepared to play for less money if they think their careers will be advanced.

    I'm not sure that it's possible to make the cultures of different organisations more equal through policies. The fact that the Crusaders spend roughly the same amount on players as the other NZ teams, yet are playing for their 10th title, suggests that culture plays a huge role in the success of an organisation.

    Trades generally lead to a rich get richer scenario because the successful teams end up with more resources to attract talent than the weaker teams.

    To balance a league you need a salary cap that's low enough that you can't afford to you hold on to all the talent. That brings its own problems though and is more likely to increase the number of players going overseas.



  • @Canes4life said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Stargazer i’m not just talking about the Canes. I’m pointing out the fact that there is a massive imbalance in this competition and it’s becoming far too predictable. I’m not sure about you but I’d rather watch a Highlanders vs Crusaders game without a predictable outcome.

    NZ rugby need to do something about this. I never even bothered watching the final as the outcome was so predictable, Crusaders always winning will help destroy super rugby. If NZ rugby spread around the talent rather than stacking it all in one team = a much more exciting competition. Stack it all in one team as is currently being done and I don't have much hope for super rugby

    There must be a financial structure so its impossible for one team to stack it with ABs. Maybe the NZRU believe NZ rugby can do OK without super rugby (or a 2nd rate competition) and the ABs mostly selected from overseas Europe and Japan teams, Because that's were its heading



  • @Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
    So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchises



  • @Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
    So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchises

    To an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.

    This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.

    Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.



  • @Crucial sure that is a point in looking at the overall product of SR
    The same happened in the 90s with Auckland we got smashed every year by the Aucks even the first year of SR
    Maybe the Crusaders through losing a lot of talent for 2020 may change things
    Whitelock,Franks,Crotty,Read,Taufua Todd,Funnell,Bateman is a big loss


  • Banned

    @Crucial said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
    So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchises

    To an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.

    This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.

    Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.

    Crusaders are ahead of the curve Other NZ franchises need to catch up

    Blues are a basket case & Highlanders are fast on their way to becoming the bottom feeders of NZ rugby once again

    So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive

    AUS teams are in a mess minus the Brumbies and they're losing their 4 best players as well

    SA sides can't keep anyone for long enough

    So I'd state looking at the next 3-5 years the Crusaders and Jaguares are in the healthiest state in terms of player quality, depth, experience and coaching acumen



  • @Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Crucial said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Chris said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Winger Players are being picked for the AB’s after they are selected and play for the Crusaders not the other way around
    So maybe recruitment and the environment that turns these players into AB’s needs to be replicated at other franchises

    To an extent yes, but also the key fact that recruitment to the Crusaders has no boundaries in place. Good players want to jump on the bandwagon.

    This has been one of the key factors in the continual success of the Saders and decline of the Blues.

    Also one of the reasons why most pro competitions have draft systems and caps. As @Winger points out you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg if competitions lack competition.

    Crusaders are ahead of the curve Other NZ franchises need to catch up

    Blues are a basket case & Highlanders are fast on their way to becoming the bottom feeders of NZ rugby once again

    So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive

    AUS teams are in a mess minus the Brumbies and they're losing their 4 best players as well

    SA sides can't keep anyone for long enough

    So I'd state looking at the next 3-5 years the Crusaders and Jaguares are in the healthiest state in terms of player quality, depth, experience and coaching acumen

    Whoosh!

    In the race to blow more smoke up the Jag's arses you have completely missed the point about the system of accumulation/distribution of talent in NZ leads to haves and have nots.

    @Chris is correct. It is a question for the whole of the comp but NZ could also put their own systems if they want (or feel the need) to make the NZ franchises more even. It is a hard one as you do want to reward the franchises that develop good systems but also not have other franchises with good coaches and systems but not the talent.


  • Banned

    @Crucial

    What you consider blowing smoke I consider respect for pathways and player development + utilisation

    Crusaders and Jaguares are likeliest teams to contend for Super Rugby titles in next 3-5 years Followed by Chiefs and Hurricanes

    Other NZ sides need to improve Not to wait on Crusaders to drop standards

    I mean who really wants to join the Blues.......

    Only been a 🤡 show for over a decade now

    Who wants to join the Landers - players wanting to leave Auckland 🤣

    Until these clubs find a semblance of stability with player turnover & coaching they'll likely remain/enroute to being irrelevant in Super Rugby



  • @Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:

    @Crucial

    What you consider blowing smoke I consider respect for pathways and player development + utilisation

    Crusaders and Jaguares are likeliest teams to contend for Super Rugby titles in next 3-5 years Followed by Chiefs and Hurricanes

    Other NZ sides need to improve Not to wait on Crusaders to drop standards

    I mean who really wants to join the Blues.......

    Only been a 🤡 show for over a decade now

    Who wants to join the Landers - players wanting to leave Auckland 🤣

    Until these clubs find a semblance of stability with player turnover & coaching they'll likely remain/enroute to being irrelevant in Super Rugby

    Whoosh! Again.

    Let's see how the Argies would cope with numerous SR teams. I think you might find they would have the same issues around talent distribution. (which is the discussion)

    A big contributing factor to some teams slumping is the (almost) uncontrolled player movement.



  • @Jaguares4real

    So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive

    No its not possible now. Its now up to the NZRU to finally act and set up a financial (or non financial) structure so its impossible for one team to be stacked with ABs. At present the opposite is occurring. ABs earn more money and non AB who are good leave for obvious reasons. Or choose the Crusaders if wanted by them as anyone looks better playing in a strong team. For example J Barrett will look (much) better playing for a Crusader team stacked with ABs

    And any NZ team that can attract all the best players as is happening now will almost always win unless they have a crap coach. It should have been addressed a long time ago. NZ always winning is bad enough for super rugby but one NZ team always winning is far worse

    At least Aust and SA has done sometime to reduce their team numbers (Aust can really only support three teams though). But a lot more needs to be done. Starting with NZ ensuring a more even distribution of players. Maybe allowing a small number of NZ players to play overseas and still be eligible for the ABs. Finals must be rotated by country etc. But NZ needs to act first.



  • Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
    Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.

    Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.


  • Banned

    @pukunui

    Well said

    I'm hearing alot of whinging which essentially boils down to the Crusaders are too good atm

    Lets screw them up a little by forcing players to move to weaker NZ teams in Super Rugby

    But that won't work

    Who the fuck in their right mind want to play for the Blues 🤣 🤣 🤣

    Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination



  • @pukunui said in Hurricanes 2020:

    Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
    Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.

    Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.

    At present the Crusaders can attract the best young talent because they have the most ABs. Would say Ennor be at the Crusaders or J Barrett be considering the Crusaders if they were a team like the Blues.

    But they key is for the good of super rugby NZ must start spreading the best players out more evenly. This isn't happening and the ways its going it will only get worse. Maybe make a super rugby team pick up all or a % of an AB's salary up to a certain much higher level than at present. So financially it will be impossible to have more than say 8 current ABs in one team.


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