Coronavirus - Overall
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@siam said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Walling off the elderly or vulnerable could be voluntary though. Has anyone ever asked the elderly about their preferences for locking down?
It could be and should be. Have we ever had law abiding healthy people confined in this way before during peace times. Yet we all got by well enough. Now out of control nanny states are running rampant. And almost 12 months later we don't really seem to be any better off. Temporary restrictions are starting to have a permanent look. And someone with a sore throat (confirmed as Covid with tests that aren't 100%) = lock the country down again just in case
My view has always been
Govts to once again respect our right and freedoms except (maybe) have restrictions on the sick with symptoms (like a high temperature of coughing non stop). And people collectively need to understand. Give Govts to much power and they will go crazy. It seems to be the nature of the beast.
Education.Lots of it. And then start trusting people to do whats best not treating everyone like naughty children
Provide money to support the vulnerable. Say free vaccines if they want to do this. Or home deliveries. Even free vitamin / herbal supplements or water purifiers etc
Investigate more fully (and fairly) some of these (cheap) treatments like hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin.
Do a sensible risk cost assessment. And accept that Govt's can't ever save and protect everyone -
@siam said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@donsteppa good points as always. Walling off the elderly or vulnerable could be voluntary though. Has anyone ever asked the elderly about their preferences for locking down?
My fear for the whole covid thing has been not the virus, but the observable behaviour of political leaders, media and the undeniable wealth and business transfer to huge corporations at the expense of small business.
The authoritarian approach, police enforcement and hefty fines used to enforce the restrictions on personal movement and freedom has been an ominous hammer on a population whose collective goodwill and overall compliance have made lockdowns a success. The people have slowed covid, not the politicians.
I accept the current procedures as one way of successfully dealing with and delaying covid transmission but will continue to question the roles and decisions of governments during all this. The virus hasn't changed our lives, government reactions have.
One day the virus will be gone from our lives but will the governments ever be?
Whilst I lean towards your side of this, what has been staggering to me is the level of public support for the hammer approach taken. Witness the political domination of NZ, QLD, WA, and even Dan bloody Andrews in VIC.
Unfortunately, this appears to be what we want.
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UK road toll 2018: 1770
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-provisional-estimates-year-ending-june-2018#:~:text=Statistics on reported road casualties,severities%2C a decrease of 6%UK COVID 19 death toll since 15 February 2020 (close enough to exactly one year): 120,365
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ -
so what is happening with the CV of late?
Seems the majority of the world, numbers are dropping off, even Mexico and Brazil seem to have passed thier peak, India, well who knows about thier numbers which are looking superb as well, and I doubt they are getting vaccines to the swathes of vulnerable people ( I realise in some of these countries the true numbers of infected/dead are likely much higher)
Can understand the massive drop off in infections and deaths in the likes of the UK, US with massive vaccine roll outs, but overall is the virus itself petering out, or mutated to become less infectious or deadly so it is able to survive?
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@taniwharugby There could well be a seasonal element to it, which has been suggested as a possibility. The lockdowns in Europe will also be having an effect and then as you say the vaccine roll out. Let’s hope!
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@voodoo There's widespread support in NZ because only 25 people have dies and life apart from overseas travel is pretty much normal. Unemployment falling we were only in recession for one quarter. The sun is shining etc.
Plus wherever we get our news its fucking Armageddon wherever they didn't take their medicine.
Plus cultural cringe. Look at us look at us. Aren't we clever? Did you know we have hobbits too?
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@siam said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@donsteppa good points as always. Walling off the elderly or vulnerable could be voluntary though. Has anyone ever asked the elderly about their preferences for locking down?
I think there's an interesting cultural/world view aspect to it all that differs significantly. After the end of Level 3 in May last year I had an good chat with a volunteer who had been on a regional iwi-organised checkpoint during lockdown. Paraphrasing, for them it was entirely based on "protecting our Kaumātua and Kuia". Politics and the media held no sway.
Since then, I've watched some of the passionate arguments and statistics about how Covid only really affects the elderly and vulnerable ; and wryly thought that those arguments will reinforce the views and actions of that iwi, rather than change them.
I saw something similar out of Korea late last year, though I haven't looked more widely
"The majority of Korean people are supporting this type of very aggressive contact tracing at the potential cost or expense of privacy," Kwon Soonman, public health professor at Seoul National University, told ABC News. "There is a kind of group pressure that I should not harm my neighbor, because it's an infectious disease."
@siam said in Coronavirus - Overall:
My fear for the whole covid thing has been not the virus, but the observable behaviour of political leaders, media and the undeniable wealth and business transfer to huge corporations at the expense of small business.
As a slightly relevant aside, I think the (relative
) importance of small business is one of those wonderful NZ number eight wire stories, but gets overstated.- "97 of all NZ businesses are small businesses" - which is impressive, but also
- "they employ 29% of all NZ employees"
Most people I've talked to had had assumed that second figure would be much larger. I've been too lazy to check whether seven out of ten people working for medium and large companies is the same internationally, but my guess is it's in the ballpark.
Bigger businesses doing well probably benefits more people than we tend to expect. And also to the smaller businesses who contract to them and to govt departments for services, etc.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@voodoo There's widespread support in NZ because only 25 people have dies and life apart from overseas travel is pretty much normal. Unemployment falling we were only in recession for one quarter. The sun is shining etc.
Plus wherever we get our news its fucking Armageddon wherever they didn't take their medicine.
Plus cultural cringe. Look at us look at us. Aren't we clever? Did you know we have hobbits too?
"Here are lots of photos of awesome natural scenery that you can't travel to yet. But what do you think of it?"
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@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - Overall:
"Here are lots of photos of awesome natural scenery that you can't travel to yet. But what do you think of it?"
The world reacts!
@Catogrande do you mean summer/winter seasonal or just the cyclical for the virus? Given many parts of the world are heading out of summer but numbers seem to still be on decline.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - Overall:
"Here are lots of photos of awesome natural scenery that you can't travel to yet. But what do you think of it?"
The world reacts!
I'm awaiting the glorious day of Peak Cringe; when a journalist will doorstop an arriving celebrity as soon as they step out of the airbridge to ask them what they think of NZ so far.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - Overall:
so what is happening with the CV of late?
Seems the majority of the world, numbers are dropping off, even Mexico and Brazil seem to have passed thier peak, India, well who knows about thier numbers which are looking superb as well, and I doubt they are getting vaccines to the swathes of vulnerable people ( I realise in some of these countries the true numbers of infected/dead are likely much higher)
Can understand the massive drop off in infections and deaths in the likes of the UK, US with massive vaccine roll outs, but overall is the virus itself petering out, or mutated to become less infectious or deadly so it is able to survive?
I'd say it's mostly passing the seasonal peak (and any distancing or lockdown measures). Don't think vaccines would have had much effect yet.
It's mostly a Europe, North America and Latin America disease as far as the global reporting numbers go. So as most of those continents pass their winter peak the number go down.
This image from the Economist.
I have crudely circled the only periods of significant summer peaks. USA and Mexico and India last NH summer, South Africa this SH summer and Brazil this SH summer
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@Rapido has pretty much answered for me in regard to the seasonal impact. A lot of the big numbers are NH and we’re coming through our winter. It had previously been posited that we would have a second wave in the winter and that this might be worse.
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Initial analysis of real-world data pointing to a single dose of Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine cuts hospital admissions by 94%
The UK Covid-19 vaccination programme is already reducing deaths, hospital admissions and the R number, according to the largest analysis of real-world data. Separate studies released today show that after a single dose the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines provide strong protection against severe illness even in those who still become infected. An analysis of people who received the Pfizer vaccine also provides the clearest evidence yet that it stops more than two thirds of symptomatic and asymptomatic cases, meaning that it significantly cuts transmission. The data comes from comparisons of those who received the vaccine versus similar groups who have not, and includes a study of 23,000 healthcare workers who were regularly swabbed to check for infection. By the fourth week after the initial dose, the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines reduced the chances of being admitted to hospital with Covid-19 by up to 85 per cent and 94 per cent respectively, according to Scottish researchers. Among the over-80s, vaccination was linked to an 81 per cent reduction in the risk of hospital admission risk four weeks later. There was some evidence that this efficacy may wane later on, but the findings were based on relatively small numbers. The lead researcher, Aziz Sheikh, a professor of primary care research and development and director of the University of Edinburgh’s Usher Institute, said: “These results are very encouraging and have given us great reasons to be optimistic for the future. We now have national evidence, across an entire country, that vaccination provides protection against Covid-19 hospitalisations. “Rollout of the first vaccine dose now needs to be accelerated globally to help overcome this terrible disease.”https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccines-cut-covid-hospital-admissions-by-up-to-94-xplsl3smk
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Initial analysis of real-world data pointing to a single dose of Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine cuts hospital admissions by 94%
The UK Covid-19 vaccination programme is already reducing deaths, hospital admissions and the R number, according to the largest analysis of real-world data. Separate studies released today show that after a single dose the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines provide strong protection against severe illness even in those who still become infected. An analysis of people who received the Pfizer vaccine also provides the clearest evidence yet that it stops more than two thirds of symptomatic and asymptomatic cases, meaning that it significantly cuts transmission. The data comes from comparisons of those who received the vaccine versus similar groups who have not, and includes a study of 23,000 healthcare workers who were regularly swabbed to check for infection. By the fourth week after the initial dose, the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines reduced the chances of being admitted to hospital with Covid-19 by up to 85 per cent and 94 per cent respectively, according to Scottish researchers. Among the over-80s, vaccination was linked to an 81 per cent reduction in the risk of hospital admission risk four weeks later. There was some evidence that this efficacy may wane later on, but the findings were based on relatively small numbers. The lead researcher, Aziz Sheikh, a professor of primary care research and development and director of the University of Edinburgh’s Usher Institute, said: “These results are very encouraging and have given us great reasons to be optimistic for the future. We now have national evidence, across an entire country, that vaccination provides protection against Covid-19 hospitalisations. “Rollout of the first vaccine dose now needs to be accelerated globally to help overcome this terrible disease.”https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccines-cut-covid-hospital-admissions-by-up-to-94-xplsl3smk
The Oxford/AZ vaccine is apparently doing better than the Pfizer vaccine in a real-world scenario in Scotland. It will make Macron, Merkel and Von der Leyen look very stupid in doubting Oxford/AZ vaccine if backed up by more data.
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@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - Overall:
"Here are lots of photos of awesome natural scenery that you can't travel to yet. But what do you think of it?"
The world reacts!
I'm awaiting the glorious day of Peak Cringe; when a journalist will doorstop an arriving celebrity as soon as they step out of the airbridge to ask them what they think of NZ so far.
It's already happened. I can't remember who the 'celeb' was but I clearly remember an incident precisely as you outline not long after I returned to NZ. My flabber was gasted.
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@sparky said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Initial analysis of real-world data pointing to a single dose of Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine cuts hospital admissions by 94%
The UK Covid-19 vaccination programme is already reducing deaths, hospital admissions and the R number, according to the largest analysis of real-world data. Separate studies released today show that after a single dose the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines provide strong protection against severe illness even in those who still become infected. An analysis of people who received the Pfizer vaccine also provides the clearest evidence yet that it stops more than two thirds of symptomatic and asymptomatic cases, meaning that it significantly cuts transmission. The data comes from comparisons of those who received the vaccine versus similar groups who have not, and includes a study of 23,000 healthcare workers who were regularly swabbed to check for infection. By the fourth week after the initial dose, the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines reduced the chances of being admitted to hospital with Covid-19 by up to 85 per cent and 94 per cent respectively, according to Scottish researchers. Among the over-80s, vaccination was linked to an 81 per cent reduction in the risk of hospital admission risk four weeks later. There was some evidence that this efficacy may wane later on, but the findings were based on relatively small numbers. The lead researcher, Aziz Sheikh, a professor of primary care research and development and director of the University of Edinburgh’s Usher Institute, said: “These results are very encouraging and have given us great reasons to be optimistic for the future. We now have national evidence, across an entire country, that vaccination provides protection against Covid-19 hospitalisations. “Rollout of the first vaccine dose now needs to be accelerated globally to help overcome this terrible disease.”https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccines-cut-covid-hospital-admissions-by-up-to-94-xplsl3smk
The Oxford/AZ vaccine is apparently doing better than the Pfizer vaccine in a real-world scenario in Scotland. It will make Macron, Merkel and Von der Leyen look very stupid in doubting Oxford/AZ vaccine if backed up by more data.
Read that people in Germany & France are refusing the AZ vaccine based on those countries medical regulators comments on it.
Think they have not only screwed the vaccination roll-out but also the PR resulting in more deaths.
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I see the EU are now getting shirty with Germany amongst others over border control as it goes against the spirit of free movement.
They just keep thinking of new ways to shoot them selves in the foot.
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@catogrande said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I see the EU are now getting shirty with Germany amongst others over border control as it goes against the spirit of free movement.
They just keep thinking of new ways to shoot them selves in the foot.
It has been odd to see a media switching from pro-EU to anti-EU in such a quick fashion. Interesting to speak to my Dutch colleagues and they are reading more about how much the UK is suffering.
I think it's time for more respect between UK & EU honestly.
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@majorrage I couldn’t agree more but sadly I feel there is a way to go yet.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@catogrande said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I see the EU are now getting shirty with Germany amongst others over border control as it goes against the spirit of free movement.
They just keep thinking of new ways to shoot them selves in the foot.
It has been odd to see a media switching from pro-EU to anti-EU in such a quick fashion. Interesting to speak to my Dutch colleagues and they are reading more about how much the UK is suffering.
I think it's time for more respect between UK & EU honestly.
Totally agree.
I read Die Zeit the other day and while I expected a left-wing bias, I was taken aback by some of the reader comments. Some seriously appalling and ill-informed anti-British comments, conspiracy theories about Brexiteers deliberately sabotaging the EU's vaccine deliveries and how the UK must be punished for Brexit.
Looks like they have the same level of fruitcakes and loons the UK has.
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Pfizer and FDA discuss clinical trial for boosters for Covid-19 variants
Hannah KuchlerPfizer says it is discussing a clinical trial for a booster for new Covid-19 variants with the Food and Drug Administration, after the US regulator urged vaccine makers to prepare to adapt their shots.
In testimony to a congressional committee, John Young, chief business officer of Pfizer, said the company was “laser focused” on the potential impact the emergent variants could have on its vaccine’s ability to protect against Covid-19.
“We’re discussing clinical trial designs with the FDA to investigate the safety and immunogenicity of an updated vaccine that involves a change to the mRNA construct to target an emerging variant,” Young said.
“We’re preparing to respond quickly and hope to initiate a study to investigate the effectiveness of a third booster of our vaccine and trial participants who have already received two doses,” he added.
The BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine still works just as well against the B.1.1.7 variant from the UK but is less effective against the 501.V2, that was first discovered in South Africa.
Many other vaccine makers including Moderna, AstraZeneca and Novavax have already started preparing for clinical studies on vaccines targeted to the new variants, or boosters.
Stephen Hoge, Moderna’s President, said the company would have capacity to expand production in the second half of the year to make vaccines for variants, if necessary. He added that Moderna would need a few months worth of clinical studies before it could scale up a second generation vaccine.
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USA excess mortality for the calendar year 2020.
Looking at CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
I've selected the columns in the tableau. Week ending 4/01/20 to week ending 02/01/21
Can drill in.
498,349 excess deaths
Expected deaths 2,918,238
Actual deaths: 3,416,587
Excess of 498,349This is my maths ......
17% increase in deaths for the calendar year.But to not come over too alarmist. Population in 2020: 331,002,000
So, expected 0.88% of USA population to die in a calendar year 2020.
Last year 1.03% died.
Previous 2 years, looks like a few 'excess lives'.Counterpoints.
Pandemic only covers about 75% of the calendar year, and it isn't finished. -
My prediction. There will always be variants. At least according to the vaccine manufacturers. It will never stop. Two vaccines will soon be a monthly (or 3-6 monthly) shot to cope with all the variants.
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Heard some interesting factoids on National Radio today.
Don't know how they worked this out but
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The average number of years lost per COVID fatality is 16
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Only 16% of fatalities are 70+
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40% of COVID patients report long COVID in some form or another
All of the above further evidence against the it's only old fucks that die argument
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Only 16% of fatalities are 70+
where? In NZ?
In the US it's 60% for 75+ years. And 81% for 64+ years
In Australia those percentages are even higher
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Only 16% of fatalities are 70+
where? In NZ?
In the US it's 60% for 75+ years. And 81% for 64+ years
In Australia those percentages are even higher
Here's some graphs for the US. It shows
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Covid deaths by age group
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And the % of covid deaths compared to all deaths by age group
https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/
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@mariner4life NZ numbers, doesnt show death % by age, but easy to see, 20/26 deaths 70+
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Heard some interesting factoids on National Radio today.
Don't know how they worked this out but
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The average number of years lost per COVID fatality is 16
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16% of fatalities are 70+
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40% of COVID patients report long COVID in some form or another
All of the above further evidence against the it's only old fucks that die argument
I think that's taking soothsaying a bit far. Claiming to predict an individual's remaining years left with comorbidities isn't a guess even your gp would make. I understand retrospective data collection after recording deaths and extrapolating an average life expectancy, but to apply that to a future prediction is pretty flawed.
84% of deaths are under 70? With a median age of covid death being 82 (or whatever), must have lost a few centurions.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Heard some interesting factoids on National Radio today.
Don't know how they worked this out but
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The average number of years lost per COVID fatality is 16
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Only 16% of fatalities are 70+
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40% of COVID patients report long COVID in some form or another
All of the above further evidence against the it's only old fucks that die argument
Possibly an error in reporting
Only 16% of fatalities are in the under 70s
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Only 16% of fatalities are 70+
It's much higher in the UK. However, there's seems a lot of evidence that factors like obesity and how active you are are having a very big effect.
Mrs M's parents are 86 & 82 with complications like Alzheimer's, Dementia & slow-burn cancer and have both had Covid. The GP is pretty confident they survived as they are both pretty active for their age and aren't overweight - obesity being a huge factor as @MiketheSnow has pointed out.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=nation&areaName=England
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@mikethesnow I've done a bit of research as when I heard it on the radio I was a very surprised. My best guess is I misheard it as it appears the mortality rate for over 70's is around 16%.
Apparently mortality rate increases are pretty linear across all age groups if you remove people in rest homes - presumably because they are only there because they are so frail. It also appears that cardio pulmonary disease is a bigger risk factor than age, but of course old bastards are much more likely to have CPD
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I posted a link to an article about this a few days ago, but can understand why nobody would want to click on a Newshub link... https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2021/02/coronavirus-the-average-covid-19-victim-had-16-years-of-life-left-in-them-study-finds.html
It's across 81 countries and 1.28 million deaths, notes that the average age of death is 72.9, but 75% are under 75, and that life expectancy increases as people get older, so life expectancy for someone who has reached 70 is in their 80s, but also uses life expectancy data for each country to avoid skewing the outcomes.
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Couldn’t open the link, so might be talking out of my arse but...
Looking at the assumptions implied in the headlines it seems to me that it might not take into account that a large proportion of those deaths already had comorbidities and would thus have statistically been among those that didn’t have those extra 16 years.
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From the study:
This study’s sample presents an average age-at-death of 72.9 years; yet only a fraction of the YLL can be attributed to the individuals in the oldest age brackets. Globally, 44.9% of the total YLL can be attributed to the deaths of individuals between 55 and 75 years old, 30.2% to younger than 55, and 25% to those older than 75. That is, the average figure of 16 YLL includes the years lost from individuals close to the end of their expected lives, but the majority of those years are from individuals with significant remaining life expectancy. Across countries, a substantial proportion of YLL can be traced back to the 55–75 age interval, however there remain stark differences in the relative contribution of the oldest and youngest age groups (Fig. 2, Panel A). These patterns account for the proportion of YLL for each age group out of the global YLL (see Table S7). In higher income countries, a larger proportion of the YLL is borne by the oldest group compared to the youngest age groups. The opposite pattern appears in low and mid-income countries, where a large fraction of the YLL are from individuals dying at ages 55 or younger.
The wealthier the country, the longer old people generally live. Stunning insight again from a study of no worth. Paper doesn't make the effort to explain those dying at 55 are likely to have considerably contributed to their own demise.
Here's a better idea for the authors; YLL by BMI for younger cohort.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Overall:
From the study:
This study’s sample presents an average age-at-death of 72.9 years; yet only a fraction of the YLL can be attributed to the individuals in the oldest age brackets. Globally, 44.9% of the total YLL can be attributed to the deaths of individuals between 55 and 75 years old, 30.2% to younger than 55, and 25% to those older than 75. That is, the average figure of 16 YLL includes the years lost from individuals close to the end of their expected lives, but the majority of those years are from individuals with significant remaining life expectancy. Across countries, a substantial proportion of YLL can be traced back to the 55–75 age interval, however there remain stark differences in the relative contribution of the oldest and youngest age groups (Fig. 2, Panel A). These patterns account for the proportion of YLL for each age group out of the global YLL (see Table S7). In higher income countries, a larger proportion of the YLL is borne by the oldest group compared to the youngest age groups. The opposite pattern appears in low and mid-income countries, where a large fraction of the YLL are from individuals dying at ages 55 or younger.
The wealthier the country, the longer old people generally live. Stunning insight again from a study of no worth. Paper doesn't make the effort to explain those dying at 55 are likely to have considerably contributed to their own demise.
Here's a better idea for the authors; YLL by BMI for younger cohort.
Does it take in to consideration how hard those years are too?
A 55-70 year old living in the UK has it so much easier than a 55-70 year old in Kenya for example
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@mikethesnow said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Overall:
From the study:
This study’s sample presents an average age-at-death of 72.9 years; yet only a fraction of the YLL can be attributed to the individuals in the oldest age brackets. Globally, 44.9% of the total YLL can be attributed to the deaths of individuals between 55 and 75 years old, 30.2% to younger than 55, and 25% to those older than 75. That is, the average figure of 16 YLL includes the years lost from individuals close to the end of their expected lives, but the majority of those years are from individuals with significant remaining life expectancy. Across countries, a substantial proportion of YLL can be traced back to the 55–75 age interval, however there remain stark differences in the relative contribution of the oldest and youngest age groups (Fig. 2, Panel A). These patterns account for the proportion of YLL for each age group out of the global YLL (see Table S7). In higher income countries, a larger proportion of the YLL is borne by the oldest group compared to the youngest age groups. The opposite pattern appears in low and mid-income countries, where a large fraction of the YLL are from individuals dying at ages 55 or younger.
The wealthier the country, the longer old people generally live. Stunning insight again from a study of no worth. Paper doesn't make the effort to explain those dying at 55 are likely to have considerably contributed to their own demise.
Here's a better idea for the authors; YLL by BMI for younger cohort.
Does it take in to consideration how hard those years are too?
A 55-70 year old living in the UK has it so much easier than a 55-70 year old in Kenya for example
Not sure about the specifics, but it did take into account different life expectancies.
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