Coronavirus - Overall
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@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
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@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
There is no "pressure" she can do as she sees fit, but she should at least understand the concept. Don't you think? As one who "thinks for himself" you should have access to all information. She is unlikely to go looking for it in order to make a decision, but she will read the scare mongering bullshit.
Shouldn't she have access to the information to make an informed decision? She knows fuck all about it at the moment.
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@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
There is no "pressure" she can do as she sees fit, but she should at least understand the concept. Don't you think? As one who "thinks for himself" you should have access to all information. She is unlikely to go looking for it in order to make a decision, but she will read the scare mongering bullshit.
Shouldn't she have access to the information to make an informed decision? She knows fuck all about it at the moment.
It was a question (it was a VG video BTW) one that I'm unsure of the best answer to. Back in my days when I managed staff I discussed medical treatments with workmates (like treatments for hay fever for example) but as a general rule left this completely out with staff. I didn't want to be seen using my position of power to give medical advise or suggestions in any way. It was a doctor and team member area that I wanted no part of.
Now maybe with minor matters if asked I would move outside this rule but no way with a issue like vaccines. Safest to stay out of it. But the world is so different now.
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@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
There is no "pressure" she can do as she sees fit, but she should at least understand the concept. Don't you think? As one who "thinks for himself" you should have access to all information. She is unlikely to go looking for it in order to make a decision, but she will read the scare mongering bullshit.
Shouldn't she have access to the information to make an informed decision? She knows fuck all about it at the moment.
It was a question (it was a VG video BTW) one that I'm unsure of the best answer to. Back in my days when I managed staff I discussed medical treatments with workmates (like treatments for hay fever for example) but as a general rule left this completely out with staff. I didn't want to be seen using my position of power to give medical advise or suggestions in any way. It was a doctor and team member area that I wanted no part of.
Now maybe with minor matters if asked I would move outside this rule but no way with a issue like vaccines. Safest to stay out of it. But the world is so different now.
I think the hardest thing with vaccines is ensuring the health and safety for other staff and what to do when someone's right to refuse medical treatment is on a collision course with an employer's requirement to provide a safe workplace. In areas that are generally without contact with infectious people, the H&S issue doesn't really arise, but in some front line occupations, will be very hard to avoid it. It's also tough for unions since we have members demanding the union pushes their employers on health and safety including vaccines, and other members demanding the union assists them when they want to refuse vaccines.
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@godder said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
There is no "pressure" she can do as she sees fit, but she should at least understand the concept. Don't you think? As one who "thinks for himself" you should have access to all information. She is unlikely to go looking for it in order to make a decision, but she will read the scare mongering bullshit.
Shouldn't she have access to the information to make an informed decision? She knows fuck all about it at the moment.
It was a question (it was a VG video BTW) one that I'm unsure of the best answer to. Back in my days when I managed staff I discussed medical treatments with workmates (like treatments for hay fever for example) but as a general rule left this completely out with staff. I didn't want to be seen using my position of power to give medical advise or suggestions in any way. It was a doctor and team member area that I wanted no part of.
Now maybe with minor matters if asked I would move outside this rule but no way with a issue like vaccines. Safest to stay out of it. But the world is so different now.
I think the hardest thing with vaccines is ensuring the health and safety for other staff and what to do when someone's right to refuse medical treatment is on a collision course with an employer's requirement to provide a safe workplace. In areas that are generally without contact with infectious people, the H&S issue doesn't really arise, but in some front line occupations, will be very hard to avoid it. It's also tough for unions since we have members demanding the union pushes their employers on health and safety including vaccines, and other members demanding the union assists them when they want to refuse vaccines.
If I have the vaccine. I wouldn't give a toss what others do. As I would protected. And I accept that there is always a small risk in life
But with one exception. When I lived in the UK it was often like travelling or working in a doctors surgery during a bad sickness spell. People would come to work and cough non stop. It use to piss me off. So if clearly ill people are required to stay at home and aren't allowed on public transport. Then I would accept any minor risk that still exists. In that the vaccine doesn't work that well for me and I might still get Covid. We will never live in a completely virus free world (in that people are protected from them).
I would definitely prefer this to removing the right of others who want to go a different route.
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@catogrande said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@catogrande said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@victor-meldrew One for the grumpy old man thread. When you take a nice bottle and it doesn't get opened and instead you get given the latest Bulgarian Shiraz and your Grand Cru is never seen again
You and I must know some of the same people or were you giving me the heads up regarding @Victor-Meldrew ?
I'm too much of a gentleman to embarrass people by bringing wine they wouldn't really appreciate.
Could be taken either way
Each to his own, I guess. I just drink the stuff.
Given up Fern for Lent?
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Some interesting trends at the moment...
- The UK is approaching 50% population coverage for the first dose of a vaccine and 8% have now had two doses. Cases, hospitalisations, and fatalities have plummeted and spring is looming.
- But parts of Europe with much lesser (yet still significant numbers of people) vaccinated are getting third waves and new lockdowns
- There are new variations and mutations of the virus, but whenever a case jumps quarantine in Oz or NZ, despite every man and his dog seemingly being a close or casual contact, thankfully it doesn't spread - even to immediate family in several cases...
- Then there's lovely articles like this given the resurgence of Covid in places like Brazil and India: Covid 19 coronavirus: Brazil strain three times more deadly for those aged 18-45, research shows
- And cheerful stories like: Covid 19 coronavirus: New variants of Covid-19 are behaving like new viruses and may derail vaccine hopes
- The vaccines seem to be working so far, but with new headlines most days about the AstraZeneca one in particular.
- But a genuine Trans Tasman bubble is finally underway.
I suppose 2021 was always likely to be the bumpier year, and I'm very pleased with our luck so far in Australasia... it just seems a bit harder to read which way it's going overall at the moment.
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@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@godder said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
I'm going to send your vaccine video to one of my staff who doesn't want to get jabbed. Hopefully she will understand it.
Should you be pressuring your staff in this way? After all those that want to go the vaccine route are protected (whatever protection it gives)
So why not just respect her right to go another path. And get her to stay at home if she isn't feeling well (as should all staff including the vaccinated ones)
There is no "pressure" she can do as she sees fit, but she should at least understand the concept. Don't you think? As one who "thinks for himself" you should have access to all information. She is unlikely to go looking for it in order to make a decision, but she will read the scare mongering bullshit.
Shouldn't she have access to the information to make an informed decision? She knows fuck all about it at the moment.
It was a question (it was a VG video BTW) one that I'm unsure of the best answer to. Back in my days when I managed staff I discussed medical treatments with workmates (like treatments for hay fever for example) but as a general rule left this completely out with staff. I didn't want to be seen using my position of power to give medical advise or suggestions in any way. It was a doctor and team member area that I wanted no part of.
Now maybe with minor matters if asked I would move outside this rule but no way with a issue like vaccines. Safest to stay out of it. But the world is so different now.
I think the hardest thing with vaccines is ensuring the health and safety for other staff and what to do when someone's right to refuse medical treatment is on a collision course with an employer's requirement to provide a safe workplace. In areas that are generally without contact with infectious people, the H&S issue doesn't really arise, but in some front line occupations, will be very hard to avoid it. It's also tough for unions since we have members demanding the union pushes their employers on health and safety including vaccines, and other members demanding the union assists them when they want to refuse vaccines.
If I have the vaccine. I wouldn't give a toss what others do. As I would protected. And I accept that there is always a small risk in life
But with one exception. When I lived in the UK it was often like travelling or working in a doctors surgery during a bad sickness spell. People would come to work and cough non stop. It use to piss me off. So if clearly ill people are required to stay at home and aren't allowed on public transport. Then I would accept any minor risk that still exists. In that the vaccine doesn't work that well for me and I might still get Covid. We will never live in a completely virus free world (in that people are protected from them).
I would definitely prefer this to removing the right of others who want to go a different route.
The common thread in your vaccine replies is the mistaken belief that one person taking a vaccine is all it takes to protect that individual. If you don't get herd immunity within a population then vaccines are less effective.
So the question is, when does somone's right to ignore scientific data trump their co-workers right to be protected from a serious illness?
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@kirwan said in Coronavirus - Overall:
So the question is, when does somone's right to ignore scientific data trump their co-workers right to be protected from a serious illness?
How does one act as an employer to counter that?
I'm not allowed to get rid of an anti vaxxer (that's not even a word) employee.
How do I protect my other staff from one moron?
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@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan said in Coronavirus - Overall:
So the question is, when does somone's right to ignore scientific data trump their co-workers right to be protected from a serious illness?
How does one act as an employer to counter that?
I'm not allowed to get rid of an anti vaxxer (that's not even a word) employee.
How do I protect my other staff from one moron?
If they are in a role which comes into contact with Covid-19 eg border workers, they get redeployed to somewhere not in the danger area.
If a job isn't at serious risk of contracting Covid-19 without community transmission and the person wears the appropriate PPE, then the employer can't really do anything.
If employees refuse legitimate PPE, they can be fired.
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As I've said before, the Facebook Research generation has me very worried that we won't get herd immunity (so far only have anecdotal evidence, shamefully of nurses and other helath workers that are refusing the jab).
The "Be Kind" nonsense from Saint Jacinda means there will never be a tough stance on this. So if we don't get high enough levels, I see endless lockdowns as the "new normal".
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@kirwan that scenario would mean Cindy would be a two term PM
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan that scenario would mean Cindy would be a two term PM
Good?
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@kirwan Deserved
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan Deserved
Fix Hill Street intersection and she will get a shit load more votes up my way.
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@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan Deserved
Fix Hill Street intersection and she will get a shit load more votes up my way.
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@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan said in Coronavirus - Overall:
So the question is, when does somone's right to ignore scientific data trump their co-workers right to be protected from a serious illness?
How does one act as an employer to counter that?
I'm not allowed to get rid of an anti vaxxer (that's not even a word) employee.
How do I protect my other staff from one moron?
Is the person coming to work sick? Then I would say the risk is so low not to worry about it
People who are vaccinated should be protected. (otherwise whats the point)
If you are really concerned introduce a temperature reader. Or pay for a weekly spit test for everyone (although they also may refuse). And make ill people stay at home
But lets keep what made the West great. Rather than move too quickly to a nanny state knows best approach and the public must comply. For a virus that is mainly impacting on the older (like me) or those with health conditions. Both of which now have the vaccine option.
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@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
Is the person coming to work sick? Then I would say the risk is so low not to worry about it
I don't worry about it, other than that my employee is a fool.
The first comment is irrelevant, transmission can be asymptomatic so they won't know if they are sick. So the rest of your post also doesn't carry any water because you are assuming that they know that they are sick.
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@winger Thing is though @snowy raises a valid point. NZ employers are required by law to provide a safe working environment. This covers health and well-being as well as accidents. In order to comply you want to 'encourage' everyone to get the jab, but then you potentially run foul of personal freedom legislation.
Add to that the potential for ant-vaxxers to be ostracised or pressured by colleagues and then you open up the whole stress can of worms.
Common sense tells you what the reaction should be but the law doesn't always follow.
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@winger said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@snowy said in Coronavirus - Overall:
@kirwan said in Coronavirus - Overall:
So the question is, when does somone's right to ignore scientific data trump their co-workers right to be protected from a serious illness?
How does one act as an employer to counter that?
I'm not allowed to get rid of an anti vaxxer (that's not even a word) employee.
How do I protect my other staff from one moron?
Is the person coming to work sick? Then I would say the risk is so low not to worry about it
People who are vaccinated should be protected. (otherwise whats the point)
If you are really concerned introduce a temperature reader. Or pay for a weekly spit test for everyone (although they also may refuse). And make ill people stay at home
But lets keep what made the West great. Rather than move too quickly to a nanny state knows best approach and the public must comply. For a virus that is mainly impacting on the older (like me) or those with health conditions. Both of which now have the vaccine option.
See, there you go again. You don't understand how vaccines work.
Take 2mins and 46 seconds of your time to remedy that.
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@kirwan said in Coronavirus - Overall:
See, there you go again. You don't understand how vaccines work.
I think youre confusing 2 separate issues. One is does vaccines give protection as I stated above? Yes it does
The other is how to ALMOST wipe out a disease. This is covered with the herd immunity video. That the protection from vaccines plays a big part. The figure in the video is 70% vaccinated
But please correct me if Im wrong. Im saying vaccines give protection. IMO its an obvious statement. I support the right of those to get vaccine. But I also support the right of those (maybe 5-10%) who want to go a different route. For example some react to the flu vaccine as I noted elsewhere. I don't like a nanny state knows best world and stuff individual right where health care is concerned.
It also means a small control group is available. To compare the outcome.
And I did note there would still be a small risk. But my view is (sadly) we will never life in a risk free world with health (as Im finding out over the last few weeks
) . Esp as people abuse their bodies with shit food, too much stress, smoking etc
