AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?



  • @Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    If Ben Smith is the benchmark, then Jordan has plenty of time to develop into that player. There's no need to rush him in at this stage when there are plenty of other options.

    That being said, they could start him on the right wing in the same way they did with Israel Dagg (and Ben Smith for that matter).

    Jordan is an outstanding young talent but I would like to see more of him under pressure to see how he copes. So far he's had a good run in dominant teams (Tasman, Crusaders).

    While playing him on the wing does make sense I am reminded of the Waikato-Tasman game last year when Jordan was badly exposed twice on defence playing on the right wing leading to tries.

    He is a far better full back than right wing IMO. He looks lost in defense there.



  • I'm hugely concerned by this talk of Clarke, Jordan and Dmac making up our back 3. Inexperienced and eratic does not bode well for a tight test match.



  • @voodoo no need for concern, we arent playing RWC pool matches, so no way in hell will those 3 start a test for us this year.



  • @voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    I'm hugely concerned by this talk of Clarke, Jordan and Dmac making up our back 3. Inexperienced and eratic does not bode well for a tight test match.

    I think it would be Jordan or Dmac.

    I'd suspect that if we see Clarke, we might see B Barrett back there in 15.

    I want to see if Clarke or Ioane can play 14 - I'm not convinced by Reece or Bridge and I think the Auckland boys are better.



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    I'm hugely concerned by this talk of Clarke, Jordan and Dmac making up our back 3. Inexperienced and eratic does not bode well for a tight test match.

    I think it would be Jordan or Dmac.

    I'd suspect that if we see Clarke, we might see B Barrett back there in 15.

    I want to see if Clarke or Ioane can play 14 - I'm not convinced by Reece or Bridge and I think the Auckland boys are better.

    I know Bridge isn’t flavour of the month, but what’s wrong with Reece. I thought he showed enough that doesn’t warrant discarding yet.

    My back 3 is B. Barrett, Ioane and Reece.



  • @ACT-Crusader

    Beyond the fact that he is a poach and a wife beater, I think he misses enough tackles, turns over the ball, and makes enough handling errors, whilst not being super Mr safe under the high ball, that we should be asking questions about whether he is the best person for the 14 jersey. He is tiny (although very strong) and I don't see him as a great fit in an era when we need at least one wing who is a fullback/wing.

    That means he has to be better than others who are power/man beaters and I think Clark is (definitely will be) better in that role.

    Some things in his favor are his relationship with Mo'unga, especially on cross kicks, and his ability to work hard and make something out of nothing. However, that happens far less at AB level and he can be put under pressure from runners and high kicks. He doesn't have the strength of others either.

    Mark Telea has similar issues, as does Ioane - interestingly he also has had a few missed tackles this year too.

    I personally think that Reece wouldn't have gone close if he hadn't been playing for the Crusaders. But, that's neither here nor there.

    IMO, both wing spots should be up for grabs.



  • @gt12 haven’t seen him miss many tackles or not take the high ball. I’ve seen him knock the ball on but that’s neither here or nor there.

    Whether he’s playing for the Saders or some other team it doesn’t matter because the guy has pace that we need for both attack and defence. He’s a dangerous threat every time he gets the ball.

    As to his character, well that’s something the new coaches will have to make a call on.



  • @ACT-Crusader

    Going by stats from Fox for this year, for example, he's way down on running metres where Telea leads; does OK for line breaks (6 after Ioane who leads for NZ players with 10); is 4th for tackles busts after Telea, Ioane, and Bridge; leads in offloads; is third equal for turnovers (after Bridge and Telea - and is tied with Ioane); is 7th for handling errors (Bridge leads with 11, Ioane 7, Telea 6, Reece 5); has a YC and two penalties; and leads in missed tackles (8, with Ioane and Telea both having 7 misses).

    So, they are all a much of a muchness.

    He's not clearly put his hand up and shown that he should be retained. I can't see why questioning whether he is the right man to hold his position or not is very controversial.



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @ACT-Crusader

    Beyond the fact that he is a poach and a wife beater, I think he misses enough tackles, turns over the ball, and makes enough handling errors, whilst not being super Mr safe under the high ball, that we should be asking questions about whether he is the best person for the 14 jersey. He is tiny (although very strong) and I don't see him as a great fit in an era when we need at least one wing who is a fullback/wing.

    That means he has to be better than others who are power/man beaters and I think Clark is (definitely will be) better in that role.

    Some things in his favor are his relationship with Mo'unga, especially on cross kicks, and his ability to work hard and make something out of nothing. However, that happens far less at AB level and he can be put under pressure from runners and high kicks. He doesn't have the strength of others either.

    Mark Telea has similar issues, as does Ioane - interestingly he also has had a few missed tackles this year too.

    I personally think that Reece wouldn't have gone close if he hadn't been playing for the Crusaders. But, that's neither here nor there.

    IMO, both wing spots should be up for grabs.

    Why?



  • @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @ACT-Crusader

    Beyond the fact that he is a poach and a wife beater, I think he misses enough tackles, turns over the ball, and makes enough handling errors, whilst not being super Mr safe under the high ball, that we should be asking questions about whether he is the best person for the 14 jersey. He is tiny (although very strong) and I don't see him as a great fit in an era when we need at least one wing who is a fullback/wing.

    That means he has to be better than others who are power/man beaters and I think Clark is (definitely will be) better in that role.

    Some things in his favor are his relationship with Mo'unga, especially on cross kicks, and his ability to work hard and make something out of nothing. However, that happens far less at AB level and he can be put under pressure from runners and high kicks. He doesn't have the strength of others either.

    Mark Telea has similar issues, as does Ioane - interestingly he also has had a few missed tackles this year too.

    I personally think that Reece wouldn't have gone close if he hadn't been playing for the Crusaders. But, that's neither here nor there.

    IMO, both wing spots should be up for grabs.

    Why?

    Beyond the fact that he is a poach and a wife beater, I think he misses enough tackles, turns over the ball, and makes enough handling errors, whilst not being super Mr safe under the high ball, that we should be asking questions about whether he is the best person for the 14 jersey.



  • @ACT-Crusader said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    I'm hugely concerned by this talk of Clarke, Jordan and Dmac making up our back 3. Inexperienced and eratic does not bode well for a tight test match.

    I think it would be Jordan or Dmac.

    I'd suspect that if we see Clarke, we might see B Barrett back there in 15.

    I want to see if Clarke or Ioane can play 14 - I'm not convinced by Reece or Bridge and I think the Auckland boys are better.

    I know Bridge isn’t flavour of the month, but what’s wrong with Reece. I thought he showed enough that doesn’t warrant discarding yet.

    My back 3 is B. Barrett, Ioane and Reece.

    The problem is that he plays on the right wing. You know that it's an unspoken Fern Rule that you must play at least one safe white boy on the wing. If Reece plays on the right, that means that the SWB must play on the left, which leaves Bridge as the only available option.



  • @junior

    Hold on. Are you calling me something?



  • @gt12 That's not answering my question. What does his selection have to do with playing for the Crusaders?



  • Certainly think it's true that some posters on here judge players from the Crusaders/ Canterbury more harshly than players from elsewhere.

    But there are others who rate Reuban Thorne above Jerome Kaino and Scott Hamilton on a par to Jonah Lomu for reasons of provincial loyalty.



  • @sparky said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    Team I'd go for if there was a Test in a couple of weeks:

    Moody, Taylor, Ofa T, Sam Whitelock, Patrick Tuipulotu, Papali'i, Cane (c), Sotutu, A. Smith,B. Barrett ,C. Clarke, ALB, Goodhue, Reece (maybe Telea), J. Barrett (or W. Jordan)
    Bench 16. D. Coles. 17. Karl T (or Hodgman) 18. Lualala 19. Dickson 20. A. Savea 21. TJP 22. R. Mo'unga 23. R. Ioane

    Love Reece's speed, work rate and finishing. If Telea can match him those areas and develop into a better player in contact, maybe he'll overtake him as AB Right Wing but Reece for me still has an extra edge.



  • @gt12 it’s not controversial to question at all. On a similar note the counter is that an incumbent AB that has played pretty well so far in just the first couple of games is still right up there to take that starting spot. That’s not controversial either.



  • @junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @ACT-Crusader said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    I'm hugely concerned by this talk of Clarke, Jordan and Dmac making up our back 3. Inexperienced and eratic does not bode well for a tight test match.

    I think it would be Jordan or Dmac.

    I'd suspect that if we see Clarke, we might see B Barrett back there in 15.

    I want to see if Clarke or Ioane can play 14 - I'm not convinced by Reece or Bridge and I think the Auckland boys are better.

    I know Bridge isn’t flavour of the month, but what’s wrong with Reece. I thought he showed enough that doesn’t warrant discarding yet.

    My back 3 is B. Barrett, Ioane and Reece.

    The problem is that he plays on the right wing. You know that it's an unspoken Fern Rule that you must play at least one safe white boy on the wing. If Reece plays on the right, that means that the SWB must play on the left, which leaves Bridge as the only available option.

    Or gulp Jordie Barrett. He did start a test last year on the right wing too.



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @junior

    Hold on. Are you calling me something?

    No, not intentionally



  • @gt12 Is Ioane in there as a wing, or just because he features in the lists? Because he's playing centre.



  • @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 That's not answering my question. What does his selection have to do with playing for the Crusaders?

    I'll go there.

    It's easier to perform in a well coached winning team with a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players.

    You just have to look at Bryn Hall recently - discarded at the Blues, but doing enough to do a role at the Crusaders, and look good doing it. And then success breeds success - if you want to be an AB, where do you go? The place where you can showcase your talents best.

    This will change eventually (separatling Franchise and Provincial contracts was a big step), but the Crusaders have had an edge in recruitment for a long time and it shows. I mean- just look at the backline they put together last weekend; how many of them were 'home grown' talent? Richie and kinda Will - the rest were all from out of catchment.



  • @junior @sparky

    Reece can play on either wing, and was used as a left winger for Waikato.



  • @Bones

    I think that Fozzie has said they see him as a winger who can play center (rather than the other way around), so I assume that if he is to start it will be at 11 or 14.



  • To be honest, apart from Lock where we are missing BBBR (but have Pat T standing up) I’m pretty excited about what this squad can bring. Hopefully it will be like the 2016 year, or the awesome newbies of 2012. Long term we have places that are looking a bit bare, the age of A Smith for ex, but SRA has really highlighted some wicked potential out there.

    The coach however..... Judgement Reserved, but ready for the Axe Call!



  • @nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 That's not answering my question. What does his selection have to do with playing for the Crusaders?

    I'll go there.

    It's easier to perform in a well coached winning team with a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players.

    You just have to look at Bryn Hall recently - discarded at the Blues, but doing enough to do a role at the Crusaders, and look good doing it. And then success breeds success - if you want to be an AB, where do you go? The place where you can showcase your talents best.

    This will change eventually (separatling Franchise and Provincial contracts was a big step), but the Crusaders have had an edge in recruitment for a long time and it shows. I mean- just look at the backline they put together last weekend; how many of them were 'home grown' talent? Richie and kinda Will - the rest were all from out of catchment.

    it's the same reason why you should never buy Melbourne Storm players.



  • Reece played centre at schoolboy level for a bit as well. Do kinda wish he went off to Connacht as it still doesn't sit well that he's an All Black. @gt12 explain the poach business?



  • @Yeetyaah

    I could be wrong, but he was recruited to HBHS from Queen Victoria (Fiji - rugby school) after showing up as an athlete there. Yuck.



  • @nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 That's not answering my question. What does his selection have to do with playing for the Crusaders?

    I'll go there.

    It's easier to perform in a well coached winning team with a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players.

    You just have to look at Bryn Hall recently - discarded at the Blues, but doing enough to do a role at the Crusaders, and look good doing it. And then success breeds success - if you want to be an AB, where do you go? The place where you can showcase your talents best.

    This will change eventually (separatling Franchise and Provincial contracts was a big step), but the Crusaders have had an edge in recruitment for a long time and it shows. I mean- just look at the backline they put together last weekend; how many of them were 'home grown' talent? Richie and kinda Will - the rest were all from out of catchment.

    And, yet, there are guys like Waisake Naholo who went from the Blues to the Highlanders, and made ABs from there. Or Jordie Barrett, who left the Crusaders academy and went to the Hurricanes, and made the ABs from there. I'm sure there are more.

    I think more guys make the ABs from the Crusaders not just because they have "a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players." I think it's because the Crusaders are better at identifying the talent in players in the first place. Guys don't just go to the Crusaders, they have to earn and be offered a spot first.

    The Crusaders wouldn't have signed guys like Bryn Hall and others from out of the regions, because these players wanted to be there and were "discarded" by other franchises. These players always had the talent. These other franchises simply didn't recognise the talent and/or weren't able to develop the potential.

    The Blues don't need talent from out of the region, because of the huge talent pool, but if Leon keeps doing what he's doing and talent identification has improved, you'll see the same happening there in spots they're not able to fill from within the region. The Canes could see the opposite happening, though, and become the new Highlanders.



  • @gt12 HBHS brings over a Fijian on scholarship for year 12/13. Other examples include Speight and Narawa. A lot of other schools do the same for PI players.



  • @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @Stargazer said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 That's not answering my question. What does his selection have to do with playing for the Crusaders?

    I'll go there.

    It's easier to perform in a well coached winning team with a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players.

    You just have to look at Bryn Hall recently - discarded at the Blues, but doing enough to do a role at the Crusaders, and look good doing it. And then success breeds success - if you want to be an AB, where do you go? The place where you can showcase your talents best.

    This will change eventually (separatling Franchise and Provincial contracts was a big step), but the Crusaders have had an edge in recruitment for a long time and it shows. I mean- just look at the backline they put together last weekend; how many of them were 'home grown' talent? Richie and kinda Will - the rest were all from out of catchment.

    And, yet, there are guys like Waisake Naholo who went from the Blues to the Highlanders, and made ABs from there. Or Jordie Barrett, who left the Crusaders academy and went to the Hurricanes, and made the ABs from there. I'm sure there are more.

    I think more guys make the ABs from the Crusaders not just because they have "a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players." I think it's because the Crusaders are better at identifying the talent in players in the first place. Guys don't just go to the Crusaders, they have to earn and be offered a spot first.

    The Crusaders wouldn't have signed guys like Bryn Hall and others from out of the regions, because these players wanted to be there and were "discarded" by other franchises. These players always had the talent. These other franchises simply didn't recognise the talent and/or weren't able to develop the potential.

    The Blues don't need talent from out of the region, because of the huge talent pool, but if Leon keeps doing what he's doing and talent identification has improved, you'll see the same happening there in spots they're not able to fill from within the region. The Canes could see the opposite happening, though, and become the new Highlanders.

    jesus. Wipe your chin.



  • @Bovidae

    I don’t have a huge problem with it until they turn out for the ABs. He should play for Fiji - he’s Fijian who was brought in to help a school be more successful at rugby.



  • @Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 HBHS brings over a Fijian on scholarship for year 12/13. Other examples include Speight and Narawa. A lot of other schools do the same for PI players.

    it's a different thread, but the real questions are: why? And should they?



  • @mariner4life

    To help develop and educate people from the islands.

    alt text



  • In an ideal world you would want Fijians (and Samoans and Tongans) playing for their own country but the opportunities for education and sport are more limited there. France is more a threat to Fiji than NZ is for poaching their players. The same for Fijians ending up in the British army.



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @Bovidae

    I don’t have a huge problem with it until they turn out for the ABs. He should play for Fiji - he’s Fijian who was brought in to help a school be more successful at rugby.

    Even if he had been committed to NZ it wouldn't be so bad, but, he'd signed a contract to play overseas which showed he had little attachment to NZ, other than the fact the Crusaders and NZR gave him a lifeline after his being a prick caused him to lose his overseas contract.

    The Hansen throw the baby out with the bath water wing experiment was pretty much a failure at the RWC too. Reece only scored against Namibia.



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @mariner4life

    To help develop and educate people from the islands.

    alt text

    the graphic isn't showing up, but i am assuming it is something to show the sarcasm



  • @mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @mariner4life

    To help develop and educate people from the islands.

    alt text

    the graphic isn't showing up, but i am assuming it is something to show the sarcasm

    alt text



  • @Bovidae

    Poachers gonna poach.

    So long as we understand that we have to wear that Albatross when the NH scribes get to write their columns, I guess that's fine.

    I don't see why we need to engage in this kind of blatant poaching though.



  • @Stargazer I'll restate my premise; it's 'easier' from the Crusaders.

    You kind of make my point for me with this:
    The Crusaders wouldn't have signed guys like Bryn Hall and others from out of the regions, because these players wanted to be there and were "discarded" by other franchises. These players always had the talent. These other franchises simply didn't recognise the talent and/or weren't able to develop the potential.

    If you have the talent, it has been easier to make the ABs from the Crusaders. Because, as you say, other franchises didn't recognise it, or develop them to their potential.

    and of course, a winning culture, supported by a competent set of administrators, and surrounded by good players helps 🙂



  • @gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

    @Bones

    I think that Fozzie has said they see him as a winger who can play center (rather than the other way around), so I assume that if he is to start it will be at 11 or 14.

    Nope...not the point. He's playing centre, so including his stats in a list of wings is about as meaningful as including Barrett's in a list of 10s.



  • @Bones

    Ah, sorry, I see. Fair point although I took those stats from Fox sports selecting 'wingers' only. I guess Rieko has had one or two starts on the wing, so gets put in that section too?


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