Guns?.........or is that the least of the problems?

El Toro supremo

To start with this is tragic beyond believe but it exposes multiple issues.......
They caught the guy now.....21 year old white kid shot 9 black people at a Bible study support group..........head spins.........
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/index.html'>http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/index.html</a>
 
Do you start by mopping up guns? Or is that really the least of the problems?
 
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The gunman allegedly told the victims before the shooting, "You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go," said Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of the church's slain pastor. She cited survivors of the shooting and was quoted by CNN affiliate WIS.
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antipodean

Because data is interesting, I looked the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country'>number of guns per capita by country</a> and cross referenced that with their respective <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate'>firearm homicide rate</a> and <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate'>general homicide rate</a>. For good measure I restricted it to countries that had a firearm ownership rate of more than 10 per 100 residents. I then excluded countries that were not classified in the Very High category of the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index'>Human Development Index</a>. 
Note: the red square is the USA. 
Firearm homicides against ownership: <img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CGppZBLKWi4/UM7LgAfFPkI/AAAAAAAAA1A/wb1_-nPLGNM/s830/FCUSA1.png" alt="FCUSA1.png"> 
Homicides against ownership. This shows that the USA does not have just a firearm homicide problem when measure against other countries, but a homicide problem generally: <img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-27WP1I984w4/UM7Lgd0qilI/AAAAAAAAA1E/8RNvH5PdSyw/s830/FCUSA2.png" alt="FCUSA2.png"> 
Homicides compared to firearm homicides: <img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0LBh85nnulo/UM7LgeUkxwI/AAAAAAAAA1I/AHkVdrfmkcw/s833/FCUSA3.png" alt="FCUSA3.png"> 
Firearm homicide rate measured against HDI result: <img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QR1VKDxRpQ0/UM7Lg8FSnhI/AAAAAAAAA1M/RijBTJc3xEk/s833/FCUSA4.png" alt="FCUSA4.png"> 
In each case we can see that the USA is an outlier. It's categorically not just a simple causative effect of gun ownership. There's something about their problem resolution. 
It would be interesting to measure socio-economic factors like unemployment rates, education attainment level, population age, etc. including illicit drug usage.

El Toro supremo

The shooter wore a sweater in one of his previous social media photographs that displayed the old South African and Rhodesian flags.......fucken ouch!
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suspected-charleston-church-shooter-gun-birthday-article-1.2262393'>http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suspected-charleston-church-shooter-gun-birthday-article-1.2262393</a>
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://time.com/3926593/charleston-killer-flags/'>http://time.com/3926593/charleston-killer-flags/</a>

Siam

Appropriate?
 
I think so

NTA

Never gets old. Onya Jim.
 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/06/12/gun-killings-fell-by-40-percent-after-connecticut-passed-this-law/'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/06/12/gun-killings-fell-by-40-percent-after-connecticut-passed-this-law/</a>
 
In summary: Gun shootings in Connecticut fall 40% after introducing background checks.

El Toro supremo

Awesome link Siam!...... not just incredibly funny.....also incredibly accurate! Absolute ripper!
 
Meantime......both sides of the political spectrum are having a field day with this sad murder of nine people.
No way how you try and bull-shit your way out of this.........bottom-line is that this is a blatant racial hate-crime......but off-course that cuts too close to the bone.
So I specifically had a look at how Fox would try and spin it........and yip.....about 30 seconds into their first reports they went for the drugs angle! This dude apparently were caught some months ago with opiates.....so it must be the drugs that made him do it! 
Forget about the fact that his dad bought him a .45 for his 21-st birthday....co-incidence. And the victims happens to be all black....awkward at most. I see they have since adjusted the narrative just a tad......
A bit over two years ago I popped opiates like candy......not once did it occur to me to shoot someone.......let alone nine people.......
 
Actually you have multiple layers in this event.......racism, guns, horribly stupid parents, drugs, inequality and even religion........where do you even start....

hydro11

The fact is that from what we know it seems that the gun used was illegally procured. Obviously what happened was a tragedy but I haven't actually heard any solutions from anyone. If someone goes and gets a gun illegally and wants to kill black people then how can you actually stop that? From what we know the attack was quite random - there was no realistic way any intelligence could stop what happened.

El Toro supremo

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/nra-mass-shootings-south-carolina-church'>http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/nra-mass-shootings-south-carolina-church</a>
 
 
Mmmmmm...OK.
 
Going to church tomorrow?
Wallet?...check
Bible?.....check
gun?.......check
(common sense?......piss off....you were never supposed to bring that)
 
Gun problem? Simple...add more guns.

NTA

hydro: There is no cure for embedded racism. Its too far gone in the USA, and I think unless they start introducing social measures - particularly around poverty - we're seeing the decline of their little military empire.
 
So yeah, while they could solve a bunch of problems by tightening their gun laws a bit, this incident was precipitated by a shit head with bowl cut who wanted to kill black people.

Godder

Well said - bang on.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="497318" data-time="1434835930">hydro: There is no cure for embedded racism. Its too far gone in the USA, and I think unless they start introducing social measures - particularly around poverty - we're seeing the decline of their little military empire. 
 
So yeah, while they could solve a bunch of problems by tightening their gun laws a bit, this incident was precipitated by a shit head with bowl cut who wanted to kill black people.</blockquote>Nice. There is something not quite right about a country who can piss away trillions a year on armaments yet they can't be arsed forking out for basic decent quality healthcare and other essential needs for their population

MajorRage

I'd come up with all sorts of things to write on this, but then I saw Jon Stewarts thoughts. Comedy Central he may be, but this is as accurate as it gets

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-time="1434835930" data-cid="497318" data-author="NTA">hydro: There is no cure for embedded racism. Its too far gone in the USA, and I think unless they start introducing social measures - particularly around poverty - we're seeing the decline of their little military empire. So yeah, while they could solve a bunch of problems by tightening their gun laws a bit, this incident was precipitated by a shit head with bowl cut who wanted to kill black people.</blockquote> The thing is Nick, even uber-progressive, nanny state Norway produced racist psycho Anders Bering Breivik. In fact the similarities between the two are pretty striking. Take a country with 300 plus million people and god knows how many guns in circulation and you're bound to get some nut cases no matter what you do. One thing I find at least a bit heartening from this terrible, farked up incident is that he was bitching about the lack of skinheads and KKK and "nobody doing anything". If those types of groups are dying in the US then I guess things are (slowly) moving in the right direction.

NTA

Yep I don't doubt that the sheer number of firearms makes the ease of killing someone easier, and you're going to have X whack jobs per capita.
 
We had our Martin Bryant thing - the wiki entry for which is fucking chilling I must say - so there will always be outliers.
 
Which is why I'm not, for once, screaming laughter about Yanks and their idiot gun laws. This guy got his gun illegally after all.
 
However, I'm still shaking my head when you hear about some 5yo kid shooting his grandma dead after getting into her purse and finding a Glock. Its even worse when one of their younger siblings is shot. Sheer, adult ignorance and irresponsibility.

gollum

Good opportunity to cross this over into the movie thread & mix it in with reviews of Kingsmen. Which is out on DVD this week in the UK.
 
Advertising has been a bit light on that cracking church scene oddly

red terror

Interesting strategy.
 
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At rally of young people in Turin, Francis issues his toughest condemnation to date of the weapons industry, criticising investors as well as workers
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/pope-francis-says-those-in-weapons-industry-cant-call-themselves-christian?CMP=twt_gu'>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/pope-francis-says-those-in-weapons-industry-cant-call-themselves-christian?CMP=twt_gu</a>
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booboo

Quite like Frank

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="497591" data-time="1434981106">
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Interesting strategy.
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Perhaps he should concern himself with the less than Christian behaviours of those closer to home...

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="497551" data-time="1434953479">
However, I'm still shaking my head when you hear about some 5yo kid shooting his grandma dead after getting into her purse and finding a Glock. Its even worse when one of their younger siblings is shot. Sheer, adult ignorance and irresponsibility.</blockquote>IIRC the case you mention was the mum being shot by her 2 year old son in Walmart, she was apparently a gun person. This begs the question, how is gun safety being taught in the U.S? In both cases, the owners of the guns displayed a poor standard of safety and the results were suitably tragic. They should know better, but clearly they don't

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="497608" data-time="1435008970">Quite like Frank</blockquote>"right" you mean? This pope is great, not afraid to call it as he sees it

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="497703" data-time="1435041696">IIRC the case you mention was the mum being shot by her 2 year old son in Walmart, she was apparently a gun person. This begs the question, how is gun safety being taught in the U.S? In both cases, the owners of the guns displayed a poor standard of safety and the results were suitably tragic. They should know better, but clearly they don't</blockquote>
You could throw darts at a board to pick the age of the shooter and the victim these days. 
Ultimately if the US spent as much on education and health as they did shooting things, they'd be in a lot better place. Someone said that above about the military, but I'm talking people who'll drop a couple of grand at a gun show but won't look after their heart

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="497704" data-time="1435041755">
"right" you mean? This pope is great, not afraid to call it as he sees it</blockquote>
 
To clarify: I quite like Frank

Mokey

Frank has balls, and power to him for attempting to drag the Catholic church into the 21st century. He seems to truly connect with people.
 
As for America, holy fuck. People did think with electing Obama they had progressed a bit, but the inherent racism of that country is there like a cancer all the time, and it's everywhere. Even in 2015, black lives aren't worth shit, and that is truly horrifying. When cops, the people who are supposed to serve and protect EVERYONE treat them as worthless - shoot kids, shoot unarmed men in the back etc, what message does that send to the fucked up racist shitheads? That it is ok. Ditto for the media coverage. Fox News, the newspapers...you look at crime stories and how they portray suspects and victims. White killers/rapists etc are very often 'lone wolves' or 'good boys' who snapped/fell victim to mental illness. Black victims will have some shitty photo, any record of any kind will be trumpeted to the high heavens like they 'deserved it', accomplishments brushed over. It's disgusting.
 
Yes it is way too easy to procure a gun in the States, and I believe their 'right to bear arms' has done them more harm than good for a very long time, but they have a hugely powerful gun lobby over there, and all the useless politicians getting contributions aren't exactly going to fall over themselves to push for tighter restrictions.
 
It's a shit of a cycle. And I hate to think what might be needed for people to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. The stats haven't done anything. Multiple school and campus shootings haven't done anything. And now we have a church shooting, and yet it still seems that is not horrifying enough to instigate change.

Rembrandt

Its amazing how ingrained pro-gun is in the average civilian population. My partner is from Ohio and just couldn't see reason on the gun debate for the longest time. She stance has now softened mostly due to those hilarious segments by Jim Jefferies, John Oliver and Jon Stewart. I sometimes wonder if that comedy might be the only chance for American salvation!

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="498095" data-time="1435303576">People did think with electing Obama they had progressed a bit, but the inherent racism of that country is there like a cancer all the time, and it's everywhere. 
 
It's a shit of a cycle. And I hate to think what might be needed for people to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. The stats haven't done anything. Multiple school and campus shootings haven't done anything. And now we have a church shooting, and yet it still seems that is not horrifying enough to instigate change.</blockquote>Its not just racism, look at the fuss over the Supreme Court ruling in favour of legalising gay marriage in all states. 
Americans are fucking stupid. The president's Supreme Court ruling in favour of keeping Obamacare gave the thumbs up to a system of subsidy to at risk citizens that is nothing compared to our system, yet the republicans would label him a communist for it. The funny thing is that a lot of rednecks vote for the GOP and they are the very people who would benefit from subsidised health care

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="498123" data-time="1435348119">
Its amazing how ingrained pro-gun is in the average civilian population. My partner is from Ohio and just couldn't see reason on the gun debate for the longest time. She stance has now softened mostly due to those hilarious segments by Jim Jefferies, John Oliver and Jon Stewart. I sometimes wonder if that comedy might be the only chance for American salvation!</blockquote>They are brainwashed into thinking it is an either or question. Greater gun controls doesn't mean responsible Americans can't still own guns, it just makes it a little more difficult for the nutters to get them.

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="498123" data-time="1435348119">
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Its amazing how ingrained pro-gun is in the average civilian population. My partner is from Ohio and just couldn't see reason on the gun debate for the longest time. She stance has now softened mostly due to those hilarious segments by Jim Jefferies, John Oliver and Jon Stewart. I sometimes wonder if that comedy might be the only chance for American salvation!
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But in that same routine, Jeffries covers those people who "are fucking SEETHING!" about him saying "more gun control".

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="498127" data-time="1435354005">
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Its not just racism, look at the fuss over the Supreme Court ruling in favour of legalising gay marriage in all states. 
Americans are fucking stupid. The president's Supreme Court ruling in favour of keeping Obamacare gave the thumbs up to a system of subsidy to at risk citizens that is nothing compared to our system, yet the republicans would label him a communist for it. The funny thing is that a lot of rednecks vote for the GOP and they are the very people who would benefit from subsidised health care
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The argument used against Obamacare by his opponents is "but you don't get to choose your doctor!" and once you tell an American they can't decide for themselves - irrespective of whether they can afford to see ANY doctor - you immediately get them boxed in.

Rembrandt

Must be so frustrating for the Americans who actually can see what's going on or have experienced other countries. I was talking to a few blokes about playing social sport and they say they would love to but if they broke an arm or something then theyd lose their families livelihood, others that need to hold down additional evening jobs on top of 9-5 just to make ends meet. Other weird things where if they take a Friday and the following Monday off work then that counts as 4 days leave which is a pretty massive percentage of sweet fa annual leave.

NTA

Yeah two weeks a year for most of them. 
And they're sold this dream that they can get ahead if they just work hard. Which is bullshit, because these policies are controlled by the rich who want no such thing

Tim

<a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/30050/why-liberals-will-never-win-the-gun-control-debate/">Why Liberals Will Never Win The Gun Control Debate</a> 
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

NTA

" Then, I start squeezing out freedom one hollow-point at a time" 
[emoji38]

NTA

That entire thing is gold. And the funniest bit is the targets of this delicious humour wouldn't even be able to detect it!

red terror

This might be a first. Let's hope it doesn't become a trend.
 
Disgruntled ex-employee at American tv station walks up to on-air reporter doing a remote location interview, pulls out a pistol and shoots her dead on live television, kills the cameraman at point-blank. He captures the whole thing on his iPhone and uploads his p.o.v. snuff video to twitter before killing himself.
 
The killer's video is out there. I'm not going to link it.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="511235" data-time="1440605843">
<div>
This might be a first. Let's hope it doesn't become a trend.
 
Disgruntled ex-employee at American tv station walks up to on-air reporter doing a remote location interview, pulls out a pistol and shoots her dead on live television, kills the cameraman at point-blank. He captures the whole thing on his iPhone and uploads his p.o.v. snuff video to twitter before killing himself.
 
The killer's video is out there. I'm not going to link it. 
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And her fiance is the producer so is watching live from the control booth.....
 
If only the reporter & cameraman had guns too they could have prevented it.
 
Like those heaviliy armed guys on that French train did.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="511235" data-time="1440605843">
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...before killing himself.
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Earlier reports said he was dead. Updates are now saying he shot himself, but he's still alive. ...
 
UPDATE:
 
Uh-oh, shooter has a manifesto. He's a black man who claims he was radicalized by Charleston church shootings.

mariner4life

what the fuck is wrong with people? Jesus christ!!!

Rembrandt

I wonder what this will be blamed on. Flags, heavy metal, computer games? Certainly not guns, an overweight gay black man is just as dangerous with or without a gun everyone knows that!
 
'murca!

NTA

Well, he's black and gay so that is two things in Gun Blame Bingo for the white majority to cling to. <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="511292" data-time="1440634631">
'murca!</blockquote>
 
Exactly!

mariner4life

The accepted narrative for this one is going to be very interesting to see (and by interesting, i expect i actually mean disgusting). 
 
I'll have $10 to win on #4 "more Guns for God Fearing White Folks, and less for Faggy Minorities" thank you

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Guns?.........or is that the least of the problems?