US Politics



  • I'd have sympathy for those people thrown on the scrapheap, especially given the economic destruction wrought on America as a result of Covid-19, if they were looting for essentials: Food and medical supplies etc.

    People wantonly embarking on mindless destruction or engaging in theft get no sympathy from me. Even if they suffer a disproportionate response from the law. Consequences and repercussions.

    At some point you might think that Americans will train, remunerate and raise the standard of policing too.

    Hard not to feel we're witnessing the decline of a nation.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @Frank said in US Politics:

    @barbarian Its important the public know who is doing the rioting.

    This is left wing violence.

    Why? What purpose does knowing their political view serve?

    Surely it's more relevant to consider their age, place of residence, race, income if you actually want to understand who they are and why they are doing it.

    But sadly it seems in America now the only relevant fact is if you're on the blue team or the red team.

    Yeah, my understanding of Antifa is that they're a bunch of disillusioned young people full of resentment towards society so want to cause trouble. There are underlying factors at play that gives rise to these sorts of groups, and they would have less to do with left or right wing politics and more to do with social and economic factors .



  • @Bones back in the old old days when INsurance wasnt common place, suposedly Insurers had thier own fire brigades, so a firetruck might get called to an address but if they werent insured with them (usually distinguished by a badge/plaque over the door) they might sit and watch or if they put out the fire claim a fee from the other insurer...

    @antipodean when you have law services not exactly working in unison (police/sheriff/state) makes it exremely difficult to get the public onside too I expect



  • Just honoring the memory of George Floyd.

    This plays into Trump's hands in getting the votes of soccer moms and people who are luke warm on him. Project strength, not say dumb things on Twitter (very tough for him - haha). Suburbia HATES this shit. And it is why a personally unpopular President (Nixon) won easily in the 70s.



  • Where is the military? Bush Sr. sent in the National Guard and Marines on the third day off the LA riots. It's been five days now.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    The National Guard should have been activated immediately. So many businesses and homes would have been saved. Just horrible weakness.

    You’ve even started speaking in Trump 😉

    Are you sure that there weren’t any “right” looters? Just “left” ones?

    The looting is wrong and has nothing to do with the protest except people taking advantage of some unrest.

    Just typical of how they things go these days..

    Cop uses unnecessary force against black man and black mans dies. “But look at those looters!”



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Frank said in US Politics:

    @barbarian Its important the public know who is doing the rioting.

    This is left wing violence.

    To a certain extent, these left wing rioters are emboldened because the people in charge are so afraid to be heavy-handed because "police brutality" will be their rallying cry if they are dealt with severely (which they should be)

    I would be looking to protect people's businesses and livelihoods and showing no mercy with this scum.

    You have really focused on the wrong thing here. “Left wing” is Not the reason people are rioting. Have a think about why riots happening who participates when they do. It is nothing to do with left or right wing. The catalyst may be something that affects one part of society more than another but usually it is civil unrest that gets out of control with subsequent escalation then opportunism. I would guess that plenty of the cops are Democrats. I would guess that plenty of the rioters don’t even give a shit about left/right. There’s no excuse for law breaking. I’m not trying to justify anything. However, there is a perception right or wrong, that blacks are dealt with by cops differently and assumptions are made that different. The point is that until demonstrative actions are taken to halt these instances of overkill by white police against black citizens this will continue to create flashpoints. That onus is on all govts, dem or repub. the moment you start finger pointing at left or right and categorising people you are looking to divide. Can I ask you this? In your job do you have people of different ways of thinking and working in your team? People that approach life differently? Just like rugby, it takes all sorts to create a good team. Why is it that when it comes to political views you can’t accept that as well, and instead look to divide the team? So many advancements in society have come from this so-called “left”and from protestors stretching acceptance. So many other good things have come from the so called “right”. Critique and discuss, choose who is best to. Manage at particular times, call out dicks for being dicks, but FFS quit this categorisation, name calling and blaming bullshit that seeks to entrench divisiveness. Rant over.

    I don't think we've got the luxury of denying the right left divide this late into the game. Any solutions will need to cater for the blue red divide, we can't just magic them away now because it makes looking at past events uncomfortable. ( for example these riots are escalations of what we've seen by Antifa who were outspoken about their side of the political divide). A definite tactic by democrats to not meet social unrest with action. Not unfair to suggest this laid the ground for recent behaviours, add in a lockdown too.

    This is delicious coming in the wake of your Trump critiques: but FFS quit this categorisation, name calling and blaming bullshit that seeks to entrench divisiveness. 😉

    Did you miss the part where I said “call out dicks for being dicks”?





  • @Tim said in US Politics:

    Where is the military? Bush Sr. sent in the National Guard and Marines on the third day off the LA riots. It's been five days now.

    Trump would happily let it get worse to justify his preferred response.

    I see social media nutjobs saying these riots are a coordinated false flag operation. Wow. That is some deep fuckwit gear right there.

    Anyway there are still cooler heads around at least.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    To a certain extent, these left wing rioters are emboldened because the people in charge are so afraid to be heavy-handed because "police brutality"

    Wow. Cooked.



  • Lot of stories about police targeting media.

    It's tricky to judge because without wearing hi vis and banners saying "media" there could be mistaken identity - they should go back to carrying huge cameras 😉

    But a large part of the issue is the level of training and remuneration for a lot of police forces in the USA. It is inconsistent and often poorly administered. Bringing in State police and reservists will escalate things in an unpredictable fashion.



  • @NTA I also heard that for the most part the police don't get independent reviews following incidents like this, they just do an internal review and move on. So nothing ever changes.



  • @No-Quarter I understand quite a few of their positions in law enforcement are elected officials. Therefore you have a system which tends to do the bidding of voters.

    Hence the call from the guy in the Twitter post I copied above, telling people to organise themselves and elect the officials who will govern for the people.



  • @No-Quarter said in US Politics:

    @NTA I also heard that for the most part the police don't get independent reviews following incidents like this, they just do an internal review and move on. So nothing ever changes.

    Like it's any different here



  • I have seen a video of a black woman pleading with 2 white female protesters to stop tagging a Starbucks with “blm”. The 2 women basically tell her to shut up.

    The black woman tries to explain that all that will happen is blacks will be blamed for the vandalism.

    I do not have a chip on my shoulder, as a minority in my own home country or in the one I currently live in. I’ve lived a life fairly free of racism directed at me. But I am absolutely siding with the US black community on this one. I’m sick of hearing from so many white Americans that fall back on “all live’s matter” in response to the BLM protests. Yes they all matter but thats not whats fucken going on here. You can absolutely fight for equality without downgrading non black live ffs. So hold your tongue Karen.

    I’ve been following this since the shooting of the Armaud Arbery, who was simply out jogging, came to light publicly, months after it happened. The kid goes for a jog. Casually looks around a building site of a new house, without stealing anything (which a white couple also did the same week without issue) sets back out on his quarantine exercise and is then accosted by a father and son and quizzed about entering the building site. He takes issue and then they shoot and kill him. They were not charged with any crime until a film of the shooting was made public. 2 fucking months later.

    And then this, George Floyd, a security guard accused of trying to pass a counterfeit $20 bill. Which allegedly has turned out to be not the counterfeit at all....but he endured 9min of a full grown mans weight via his knee on Floyd’s neck. And then, as it was revealed yesterday 2 other officers were also kneeling on him. 9 mins of torture. Pleading for help and that he could not breath. Bystanders pleading to let him up. Floyd loses consciousness and later died. For the record the official word from the police is that Floyd had preexisting poor health and is was a major contributor to his death. That officer has since been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter(odd to me that it be both but I don’t claim to understand criminal law). He was also a proud racist.

    The day after this occurred, or at least after the story broke, an adventure capitalist, Tom Austin of Minnesota, accused 4 black men of trespassing in the corporate gym of his office building. He threatens to call the police and eventually call the building management after demanding the men prove they were tenants. That had been tenants with an office in the building for 18 months.

    Christian Cooper, Harvard alumni, avid birdwatcher and black man was in a specific birdwatching area of Central Park NY when Amy Cooper(no relation) wandered into the area with her off leash dog. The area requires all dog be on a leash. Christian politely asks Amy to leash her dog. She becomes hysterical claims he is threatening her and then call 911 claiming Christian is “an African American Man“ threatening her and her dogs life(yes she mentioned the dog was threatened as well). Thankfully Christian caught the ridiculously over top Amy on film.

    Both Amy and Tom eventually suffered for their racism. Amy was fried from her job and Tom was evicted from his building. But how many of these “Karen’s” are using their positions of privilege to victimise African Americans and aren’t caught or filmed?? I’m not dumb enough to lump all white Americans in as racist. And there are a fuck load of racist black Americans. But you can’t act like there isn’t a racism problem there in the US anymore.



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    The bit that confuses me in this Floyd situation is why the cop wasn't arrested 'on suspicion' while they assembled evidence and a case.

    IIRC there have been a number of cases where officers have been fired or arrested, their lives wrecked and then all charges dropped once the evidence come in and/or the protests die down.

    Then the lawsuits start.

    Gotta be a better way.



  • 🤦♂



  • @Dice America summed up in 2 tweets



  • Good to see, but the source of funding might be harder to track down. They are decentralized, whereas KKK, Black Panthers had a known hierarchy.
    There is disagreement as to whether ANTIFA can be designated as such.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    Good to see, but the source of funding might be harder to track down. they are decentralized, whereas KKK, Black Panthers had a known hierarchy.

    Surely the good guys have all of this by now.

    Because this rot needs to be cut at source, not just arrest a few of the foot soldiers.

    What I believe (and hope) Trump and team have been doing is shinning a light on the rot in the US before they act. Including some of the vile and loony leaders in the Democratic party.



  • @Winger said in US Politics:

    What I believe (and hope) Trump and team have been doing is shinning a light on the rot in the US before they act. Including some of the vile and loony leaders in the Democratic party.

    Oh yeah. The Democratic leadership needs to be bought to justice for this.

    I look at the nationwide protests, the looting and chaos, the police brutality, the mindless violence and I think 'the opposition party has a LOT to answer for here'.







  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @Winger said in US Politics:

    What I believe (and hope) Trump and team have been doing is shinning a light on the rot in the US before they act. Including some of the vile and loony leaders in the Democratic party.

    Oh yeah. The Democratic leadership needs to be bought to justice for this.

    I look at the nationwide protests, the looting and chaos, the police brutality, the mindless violence and I think 'the opposition party has a LOT to answer for here'.

    A distinction can be drawn about state leadership and Democrat and Republican states and their legislation and reponses. Just like in Australia and the differing responses to COVID, are independent of Morrison's direct influence

    I don't think you can easily blame the national government or the opposition but analysis of state governance is a valid analysis. Certainly a part of the inevitable inquiry.

    There have been some pretty strange state government responses to "protesters" destroying public and private property over the last 4 years. An analysis of these actions is not unreasonable to ask for.



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    There have been some pretty strange state government responses to "protesters" destroying public and private property over the last 4 years. An analysis of these actions is not unreasonable to ask for.

    Of course.

    My issue is with a couple of posters (not you) and others more broadly who see this as the responsibility of one thing/person/entity. It's Trump. It's Antifa. It's racism. It's cops. It's the Dems/Republicans. If only we could do something about X then this would all be fixed.

    It might make you sleep better at night to attribute this all to your political opponents, but it's a pretty dumb way to look at this.



  • @barbarian What ARE the causes ?

    I see a bunch. A murderous fuckwit of a cop. Scumbag looters + Antifa + others??? Weak state law enforcement response emboldening them.

    Could go deeper into the simmering racial divide and the reasons for that, but that's a little beyond me.



  • A key issue I think is a lot of American's have no faith in their system to ensure justice is served, especially when it comes to cops. To have a protest about a murder like this demanding that the cop be arrested is absurd. He should have been arrested immediately, but the first response from the police was "don't worry he's been fired". That just fueled the fire.

    Things have really gotten out of hand now with Antifa and opportunistic criminals jumping in and making hay. Very sad to see, and the victims will be the hardworking people in those communities.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    @barbarian What ARE the causes ?

    Could go deeper into the simmering racial divide and the reasons for that, but that's a little beyond me.

    But that's it. If we're listing the causes of this (many and varied), you have to start with the simmering racial divide that is as old as the country itself, and how that manifests more recently in the area of law enforcement.

    The George Floyd incident was just the catalyst. Saying that this was caused by a murderous cop is like saying the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand caused World War 1. I could also make a Wayne Barnes forward pass causing ABs 07 exit thing here but this thread is enough of a mess without me being so careless as to bring that into it.

    Then you throw in racial inequality (perceived or actual), income inequality, the virus and ensuing unemployment, and just a general sense of anger (which hurts and helps Trump in almost equal measure) and you have a powder keg waiting for a match.

    The extent of these demonstrations shows to me that this has tapped something far deeper than just one bad cop in one city, or some organisation like Antifa or this Governor or that President.



  • @barbarian nice one. I think we really need some authentic info from the looters. The subjects will be overwhelmingly young males. Why mate? What was your reasoning the moment you left where you were to go join the riots? Why didn't you bail out at any stage and go home? Any remorse for the damage? Would you do it again? Lockdown? Who were you angry with? Was it fun?

    And you gotta be ready for any answer they give. Being dismissive and insulting won't provide any insights. We have to know the looters view of their lives in this world, not just cancel them as only thugs. Everyone of them knows looting is fundamentally wrong, yet pushed that aside for some reason.

    I fear that we've created a world where huge tracts of our youth males can see no tangible benefits of modern society. No meaning to strive for. Something's going on with these people and it'll be partially unearthed by a "walk a mile in my shoes" type approach.

    This stuff in US is hugely important globally, and all we're going to see on the media is gargantuan and grotesque finger pointing.



  • Yesterday in London, there was as pretty large mob which went outside 10 Downing Street - they yelled out fuck the police as one. Anitfa sign was front and central.

    Like Covid, it's spreading.

    I certainly side with those upset about Floyd and what caused it. I don't side with rioters, looters and those who like to cause anarchy. I tend to find that the real crossover between the two groups is little.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    But that's it. If we're listing the causes of this (many and varied), you have to start with the simmering racial divide that is as old as the country itself, and how that manifests more recently in the area of law enforcement.

    I'd suggest you need to start with income disparity. The fact that inner-city African Americans are more likely to not be college educated, be from single parent households, be in (relative) poverty, be located in high crime areas and it's small wonder that police, who spend every minute of their working day surrounded by criminals or the victims of crime are on edge.

    Particularly when such interactions are marked by a high propensity for violence amongst suspected criminals.

    Given the marked decline in the employment market, it's not surprising to find white youths all too eager to engage in mindless violence too.

    The media seems to be strangely quiet that the other two officers heavily involved in the events surrounding Floyd's death were Asian and Hispanic.



  • The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    The media seems to be strangely quiet that the other two officers heavily involved in the events surrounding Floyd's death were Asian and Hispanic.

    I don't disagree with your post, but just on this I have heard that fact a few times and I wouldn't consider myself to be following the incident forensically.



  • Some FYI.

    US police officers killed by gunfire while on duty. 2017 45 2018 52 2019 48 2020 20

    There is also a category called ( gunfire- inadvertent). So the above are murders.

    Nearly every scenario was a routine piece of police work. Domestic violence call out and traffic stops featuring the most.

    As an American police officer, 1 of your occupation peers gets shot dead every week of the working year. Anyone else that can lay claim to a similar "occupational hazard"?

    https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    Some FYI.

    US police officers killed by gunfire while on duty. 2017 45 2018 52 2019 48 2020 20

    There is also a category called ( gunfire- inadvertent). So the above are murders.

    Nearly every scenario was a routine piece of police work. Domestic violence call out and traffic stops featuring the most.

    As an American police officer, 1 of your occupation peers gets shot dead every week of the working year. Anyone else that can lay claim to a similar "occupational hazard"?

    https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

    Something I've always wondered is how disproportionate the statistics are with respect to crimes committed.

    For example, if black men are 3 x more likely to get searched, do they commit 3 x more crime? I'll be honest and say I've never really looked into it, but I wonder how many actual facts are behind the racism.



  • Just watched the video of the murder. It really is unbelievable.

    America has a massive problem with its police. Massive.



  • @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    Yesterday in London, there was as pretty large mob which went outside 10 Downing Street - they yelled out fuck the police as one. Anitfa sign was front and central.

    Like Covid, it's spreading.

    I certainly side with those upset about Floyd and what caused it. I don't side with rioters, looters and those who like to cause anarchy. I tend to find that the real crossover between the two groups is little.

    Saw some photo's which suggested UK protestors were largely white? Social distancing was not in evidence.



  • @junior said in US Politics:

    @Kirwan said in US Politics:

    The thing that stands out to me is the almost fetishised military gear the cops are wearing. That the first thing I would get rid off.

    Hard to convince the community you are there to help them when you look like you have prepared to fight the masses.

    Second thing is they have to crush Antifa and the violent protestors.

    Leave the peaceful ones (for Christ sake stop pepper spraying woman and children).

    It’s a shit show however you look at it. Hard to see a way back.

    This. It all feeds into the disproportionate manner in which the police react to (mostly) petty crime (or at least the perception). Do you really need to kneel on a guy's neck just because you (wrongly) think he's using counterfeit money?

    If you have had colleagues shot and killed on random traffic stops I’d imagine every interaction could be tense. I also thing they train this and it’s clearly dangerous.

    So two factors at play, a poor technique and potentially a wearing down of mental health after prolonged exposure to dangerous situations.



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    For example, if black men are 3 x more likely to get searched, do they commit 3 x more crime? I'll be honest and say I've never really looked into it, but I wonder how many actual facts are behind the racism.

    A good place to start.. Busts a few myths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States


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