Investing - Property/Shares
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[edit - split from 'Hapiness Scale' thread]
@Bones said in Happiness Scale:
Yeah nah I could do it eh. Pay off the mortgage, buy some properties under stamp duty that need doing up and then some part time Amazon delivery or ubering.
Who's gonna donate so I can prove it?
From what I've been told, using property to fund your lifestyle can be really stressful and anything but happy
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Happiness Scale:
@Bones said in Happiness Scale:
Yeah nah I could do it eh. Pay off the mortgage, buy some properties under stamp duty that need doing up and then some part time Amazon delivery or ubering.
Who's gonna donate so I can prove it?
From what I've been told, using property to fund your lifestyle can be really stressful and anything but happy
This. I'm getting out of most of it. It has been a tidy earner for me though.
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@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
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@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
Dunno about other countries, but here in the UK investing in the top 100 shares (pretty simple & conservative strategy) and re-investing dividend income gives a better return than housing - even with the loopy property prices here.
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@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
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@taniwharugby I hear ya. We have been looking at investment options as property seems the hands down winner in terms of return. We are a chance to move to another area and keep our current place as a rental, but we are on the fence about whether we do it. It's hard to work out if the stress is worth the potential/likely gain, especially with young kids in the mix.
With winning money conversation I wonder how often people have messed up due to pressure from family and friends. I mean we've been looking at it as can you live well off X amount of pingas. That's sweet if you can keep it on the down low, or give zero fucks about any expectations to share the wealth
Part of life happiness for me is my family doing well, whatever that looks like for them. So it'd be cool to win enough money to sort their mortgages or put a good dent in them. I think if we did win any sizeable amount of money that we'd both keep working, but probably part-time and definitely flexible!
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@Victor-Meldrew Its pretty much the same here but equities have a bad rep gained during the 87 crash which has embedded in the national consciousness in the same way as the underarm incident
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@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
If you are getting into too much debt to do it, it would be pretty stressful.
Then you get a tenant who smokes P in it and things get ugly quickly, bloody bitch. Two young kids too. It was insured but it took me six months to sort it out. It's also getting more difficult to get rid of shit tenants with changes to laws. They aren't exactly helping with rental property shortages.
Yes to both comments above - tracker funds aren't a bad way to go and the diversity reduces risk. The same thing applies though, never be in a position where you have to sell, whatever the investment.
My old man, who has made plenty out of shares (was an accountant) gave me a tip when I was trading quite a lot and markets were quite volatile. If you have made a large capital gain sell what it cost you, and keep the rest. Effectively means that you have no risk as what you kept cost you nothing. Stress free stock holdings.
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@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
Be wary. Any rise in US interest rates would have substantial effect on tech prices. Which means US inflation is being watched as a leading indicator. It’s ticking up.
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@pakman said in Happiness Scale:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
Be wary. Any rise in US interest rates would have substantial effect on tech prices. Which means US inflation is being watched as a leading indicator. It’s ticking up.
I've been in the market, in a relatively passive capacity, for over 10 years. It goes up and down, but as long as you don't plan to time the market to make a quick buck it always goes back up
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@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@pakman said in Happiness Scale:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
Be wary. Any rise in US interest rates would have substantial effect on tech prices. Which means US inflation is being watched as a leading indicator. It’s ticking up.
I've been in the market, in a relatively passive capacity, for over 10 years. It goes up and down, but as long as you don't plan to time the market to make a quick buck it always goes back up
I’ve been doing it professionally for 35 years. Not saying sell. Just be aware things are very high.
Don’t disagree if you’re talking ten year time frame.
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@pakman said in Happiness Scale:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@pakman said in Happiness Scale:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
Be wary. Any rise in US interest rates would have substantial effect on tech prices. Which means US inflation is being watched as a leading indicator. It’s ticking up.
I've been in the market, in a relatively passive capacity, for over 10 years. It goes up and down, but as long as you don't plan to time the market to make a quick buck it always goes back up
I’ve been doing it professionally for 35 years. Not saying sell. Just be aware things are very high.
Don’t disagree if you’re talking ten year time frame.
Yeah I think some are going to get burned at some point soon. I'm a long term buy and hold guy, the average returns compared to the NZSX and the banks are very significant
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@Snowy yeah doing the numbers I think we could handle it financially, but I just dont htink I want the headache, plenty of variables, including P...think I'll just keep smashing away on my mortgage and chucking money at my kiwisaver for now.
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@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy yeah doing the numbers I think we could handle it financially, but I just dont htink I want the headache, plenty of variables, including P...think I'll just keep smashing away on my mortgage and chucking money at my kiwisaver for now.
You could get a manager to manage a property for you. I know it costs but it takes away the stress and hassle
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@dogmeat said in Happiness Scale:
@Victor-Meldrew Its pretty much the same here but equities have a bad rep gained during the 87 crash which has embedded in the national consciousness in the same way as the underarm incident
I got burnt. Didn't have much in it as was young, but Equiticorp went broke (bunch of crooks) and Brierleys went through the floor. They were two of the biggest companies around. Equiticorp was a lesson for me.
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@Snowy said in Happiness Scale:
@dogmeat said in Happiness Scale:
@Victor-Meldrew Its pretty much the same here but equities have a bad rep gained during the 87 crash which has embedded in the national consciousness in the same way as the underarm incident
I got burnt. Didn't have much in it as was young, but Equiticorp went broke (bunch of crooks) and Brierleys went through the floor. They were two of the biggest companies around. Equiticorp was a lesson for me.
My dad is still scarred from that one. All those big companies in the 80s were shells, deals being done on napkins etc. I think the market is totally different now. But there are those who invest, and those who gamble
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@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
You could get a manager to manage a property for you. I know it costs but it takes away the stress and hassle
It doesn't really. You still have to manage the manager, the problems still end up in your lap. Sure it helps and I use property managers, but it doesn't solve all of the problems. 7 or 8 percent takes a large chunk of the earnings. You really are relying on unrealised capital gain to make money.
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@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy said in Happiness Scale:
@dogmeat said in Happiness Scale:
@Victor-Meldrew Its pretty much the same here but equities have a bad rep gained during the 87 crash which has embedded in the national consciousness in the same way as the underarm incident
I got burnt. Didn't have much in it as was young, but Equiticorp went broke (bunch of crooks) and Brierleys went through the floor. They were two of the biggest companies around. Equiticorp was a lesson for me.
My dad is still scarred from that one. All those big companies in the 80s were shells, deals being done on napkins etc. I think the market is totally different now. But there are those who invest, and those who gamble
Yep. It was all very dodgy. Mostly asset stripping IIRC. I think that they tightened up a lot of the regs after that. The whole Equiticorp thing was still going on in 2010 even though they went broke in 1989ish. NZ steel was a lemon and the government were culpable for some of the collapse. Hawkins ended up in prison too. What a mess.
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Having been stupidly lucky to buy in Western Sydney as the boom was taking off 20 years ago, we're now sitting on a pile of equity - probably 48% LVR at the moment, having sold once. Friends of ours did even better selling multiple times, but that is a killer on the emotional front having to roll houses over every couple of years.
I'd like to use the equity for something but the wife is extremely risk-averse on that front, so even a managed investment property is off the table for now. Will need to look at it again in a couple of years once we have a kid potentially in Uni and one in high school...
If he goes to Uni somewhere other than Sydney that might be the route we take: buy a house for him to rent with a couple of other people at student rates and negatively gear it...
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Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
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@canefan said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@pakman said in Happiness Scale:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
@taniwharugby said in Happiness Scale:
@Snowy my bank manager suggested I should be looking at an investment property, I said yeah nah.
I'm not good with handling stress relating to finances and I expect that would just about kill me, am pretty risk adverse when it comes to money.
A good ETF on the US stock market will give you decent gains with lower risk. Certainly more dynamic than the NZ market. Apple computer alone has averaged over 100% increase from it's 2011 price to date ($10 now $130). Pretty safe
Be wary. Any rise in US interest rates would have substantial effect on tech prices. Which means US inflation is being watched as a leading indicator. It’s ticking up.
I've been in the market, in a relatively passive capacity, for over 10 years. It goes up and down, but as long as you don't plan to time the market to make a quick buck it always goes back up
Drip feeding it in to smooth out the highs and lows makes for a sensible approach. And spread the risk by spreading the investment
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@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
Investors taking a medium-long term view and thinking it's a good buy when compared to other car companies - plus some ramping up as shares are in demand?
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@Snowy said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@canefan said in Happiness Scale:
You could get a manager to manage a property for you. I know it costs but it takes away the stress and hassle
It doesn't really. You still have to manage the manager, the problems still end up in your lap. Sure it helps and I use property managers, but it doesn't solve all of the problems. 7 or 8 percent takes a large chunk of the earnings. You really are relying on unrealised capital gain to make money.
Of course. The yields are in the toilet right now. It's dead money until you sell in a lot of cases
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@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
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@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
It's like my old teacher used to say, car companies sell engines
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@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
The share price is reaching nose bleed levels now. Oh to go back to early last year and buy a big chunk of stock
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@canefan said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
The share price is reaching nose bleed levels now. Oh to go back to early last year and buy a big chunk of stock
It’s fucked and makes no sense on any metric.
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@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@canefan said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
The share price is reaching nose bleed levels now. Oh to go back to early last year and buy a big chunk of stock
It’s fucked and makes no sense on any metric.
They account for something like 1% or less of global auto sales? People love his story, and everyone wants to get on the bandwagon to make lots of money. You just need to beware of a big corrections sometime soon
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@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@canefan said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
The share price is reaching nose bleed levels now. Oh to go back to early last year and buy a big chunk of stock
It’s fucked and makes no sense on any metric.
Well it does on the understanding that any market built on human confidence is bound to get stupid at some point.
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@MajorRage said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
It’s the battery tech, not the cars.
Bingo - Tesla isn't a car company, it is a tech company that makes cars.
Throw in the massive missteps by companies like Volkswagen and the refusal of some OEM to change rapidly (looking at Toyota and their "self-charging" hybrids), and it is not beyond complete insanity to put Tesla at the top of the pile by a long way.
Particularly in a carbon-constrained market, and before all the legislation forced changes.
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@NTA they're not that much far in front of everyone else. Chinese battery tech is bloody good. Hyundai make good electric cars. Tesla is a mini bubble
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@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@NTA they're not that much far in front of everyone else. Chinese battery tech is bloody good. Hyundai make good electric cars. Tesla is a mini bubble
No, probably not any more at a purely technical level, but Tesla have been doing it for a decade now, and don't suffer the political strains of Chinese companies.
Or their reputation. "Hey mate, nice Ford Ranger" versus "Great Wall, huh? Riiiiiight..."
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@NTA said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@NTA they're not that much far in front of everyone else. Chinese battery tech is bloody good. Hyundai make good electric cars. Tesla is a mini bubble
No, probably not any more at a purely technical level, but Tesla have been doing it for a decade now, and don't suffer the political strains of Chinese companies.
Or their reputation. "Hey mate, nice Ford Ranger" versus "Great Wall, huh? Riiiiiight"
They are the Apple Computer of the car world right now. Kid of geeky cool to have one
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Best selling EV in China - and therefore the world - according to Google, is the Wuling HongGuang Mini EV. A household name across the planet... You be SLAYING the pussy in this:
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@NTA NIO is making waves on the US stock market now, they are coming
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@canefan said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@NTA NIO is making waves on the US stock market now, they are coming
And no doubt they'll do well along with XPeng who are turning out some sexy cars. But trust is a big thing and large sections of the American market look at Asian cars with suspicion. That's why I think Rivian and Ford will do well with their pickups.
Throw in China's reputation for embedding suspect chipsets for remote control/data access, and, well...
But we're OT right now and the Mods are eager to append all this to the EV thread
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Anyway, back to shares n shit:
How does the KiwiSaver thing work in terms of where it is invested?
Is it similar to Oz? For example, here I choose my Super fund manager (BT for example) and can even tell the financial adviser both where the balance of funds should sit in terms of risk, and also how the individual tranches are structured e.g. put this much in cash and then split the rest here, here, and there.
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@NTA bunch of different providers and with each (all?) you have a range of low, medium, and high risk options for investment. I don't actually know how widely provider options vary, really should look into it more.
I know you can change your split for further contributions, but I haven't tried to move existing investment from one bucket to another.
Recommendations on KiwiSaver providers welcome
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@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
Can someone explain to me how suddenly Tesla is worth more than every other car company combined?
Can't sleep due to a few things so decided to pop down and give you my thoughts on what has happened here. I'm out of "the game" now so don't follow the metrics anymore, but bubbles like this one are usually backed up by some substance. Not the sort of substance that gives them any sort of valuation where they are now, but piece of shit companies don't have bubbles of this length. Basically here is what happens.
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The stock is hot due to what it does, not due to the way its run. This effectively means that a shitload of knowledgable investors are short it. Tesla was no different here, with it routinely on the heaviest shortest lists. I've no idea if this is still the case, but I'd imagine the really big HF (like 10bill plus) were likely to hold significant shorts 18 months ago
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Bubble begins based something which gives it momentum - could be anything. Tesla's was basically making profits and starting to approach S&P500 inclusion.
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Suddenly you have a shit ton of shorters losing loads ... and they must cover due to their risk management models. Usually based on position sizes (a 5% short becomes a 10% short when the stock doubles etc) but also due to the chance of a bubble. Basically a short squeeze. And because they are buying it to cover their shorts .... it pushes it up further.
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Retail funds which disclose holdings (which due to reporting laws is now basically all of them) realise they need a position in it to attract investments. Especially when the stock story is interesting and appeals to current trends. Zero emission is quite the trend ...
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Retail brokers have seen it before so they start pumping it. Suddenly everybody wants it in their pension funds, in their pots .... stock keeps rising
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In this case, Tesla then got included in the S&P500. So what happens then? All ETF's, trackers, index linked funds .. HAVE To buy it at any price. It's hard to overestimate just how much buying this is.
4 & 5 can start at any point ... they are more often than not what happens at point 2 but are generally what accelerates the growth.
Where we are now with Tesla is somewhere up the curve. Now that it's in the S&P 500, it has a fair bit of downside protection - billions of dollars worth of holders will never sell it. It's such a fairytale at the moment, I honestly can't see how it stops. Bad news gets buried quickly, good news just keeps coming. They're cars can be utter shit, it doesn't matter.
My view on the cars, as a car nut, is that the are actually quite shit. The handling is average at best, the wear on them is horrific, and they date really badly. They go like shit off a shovel off the mark though, and they are extremely trendy. If you compare a 2014 Model S to pretty much so any similar priced model of that year, the Tesla looks the worst.
But the tech in them is fucking amazing. And you've gotta remember in the world we live in now, fuck all people are car nuts. The youth gave up cars about 10-15 years ago, and they are now entering that period where they have the most expendable cash (well not in NZ due to the house price surge) and they don't give a fuck about Porsche, Ferrari etc. It's all about image, it's all about a car that has technology, and its' all about running it from your phone. Basically, it's a Tesla.
So if you've got balls, buy it, go deep. It could be 10k in 5 years, it could be where it is now, it could be 100 if something goes really tits up. I'd say it's more likely to be 10k, but what would I know. I'm the world's worst investor.
Oh, it may be worth also looking at the future of electricity. It's something that seems to have gone un noticed that I'd look into. What will x million electric cars do to power supply?
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@mariner4life said in Investing - Property/Shares:
@NTA they're not that much far in front of everyone else. Chinese battery tech is bloody good. Hyundai make good electric cars. Tesla is a mini bubble
and with the rumours that apple and hyundai are going to get into bed together for an electric car this space will be interesting, increased Hyundai share price 20% when they just said they were talking..
