Black Caps tour to England
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Great to see Doug Bracewells name there, if there’s one thing the team needs it’s a quality all rounder.
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@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
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@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
Even if Martin Donnelly, Glenn Turner, Martin Crowe and Bert Sutcliffe all played in the same era I’d still say no.
Conway looks to the manor born. Unfortunately for him he’ll still struggle to break our 3/4/5 axis, despite a relatively lean period there’s no way they’ll drop Taylor. KW walks in obviously so is there a chance Nicholls place might be in jeopardy ?
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@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
Have to fit him in without injuries first.
This is a difficult selection for the Lords game. Lots of intricacies when you take into account India's strengths and weaknesses and the Lords slope. Do we even need a spinner? Do we play an allrounder (Bracewell/CDG/Mitchell) or Santner, or stack the batting?
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@crucial They moved it to Southampton. Not being played at Lords but at the Hampshire bowl or Rose bowl (whatever they call it).
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@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
Have to fit him in without injuries first.
This is a difficult selection for the Lords game. Lots of intricacies when you take into account India's strengths and weaknesses and the Lords slope. Do we even need a spinner? Do we play an allrounder (Bracewell/CDG/Mitchell) or Santner, or stack the batting?
He’ll always have a special place in my heart for his efforts in Australia but that was ten fucken years ago.......I hope he isn’t seriously considered because a) we have much better bowling options and b) he’s not an all rounder.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
Conway looks to the manor born. Unfortunately for him he’ll still struggle to break our 3/4/5 axis, despite a relatively mean period there’s no way they’ll drop Taylor.
An article I was reading said it could be Conway vs Blundell as the other opener. Blundell has done well at the top of the order but is more a middle order batsmen. His recent tons for Wellington have been from the middle order.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
Have to fit him in without injuries first.
This is a difficult selection for the Lords game. Lots of intricacies when you take into account India's strengths and weaknesses and the Lords slope. Do we even need a spinner? Do we play an allrounder (Bracewell/CDG/Mitchell) or Santner, or stack the batting?
He’ll always have a special place in my heart for his efforts in Australia but that was ten fucken years ago.......I hope he isn’t seriously considered because a) we have much better bowling options and b) he’s not an all rounder.
Kylo is shaping into an allrounder
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@bovidae said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
Conway looks to the manor born. Unfortunately for him he’ll still struggle to break our 3/4/5 axis, despite a relatively mean period there’s no way they’ll drop Taylor.
An article I was reading said it could be Conway vs Blundell as the other opener. Blundell has done well at the top of the order but is more a middle order batsmen. His recent tons for Wellington have been from the middle order.
Would be hard on Blundell, he has played well. This is an unfamiliar problem for the BCs to have
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@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
This is an unfamiliar problem for the BCs to have
It is a bit of a mind fuck. Having to decide which good players to leave out, instead of choosing which of the least shit players to put in.
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@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Devon will be looking to run up the scores. Have our batting stocks ever been this strong? I'd say no
Have to fit him in without injuries first.
This is a difficult selection for the Lords game. Lots of intricacies when you take into account India's strengths and weaknesses and the Lords slope. Do we even need a spinner? Do we play an allrounder (Bracewell/CDG/Mitchell) or Santner, or stack the batting?
He’ll always have a special place in my heart for his efforts in Australia but that was ten fucken years ago.......I hope he isn’t seriously considered because a) we have much better bowling options and b) he’s not an all rounder.
Kylo is shaping into an allrounder
.....and the way he’s bowling I wouldn’t care if he batted worse than Chris Martin. He’s a hell of as talent.
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@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
This is an unfamiliar problem for the BCs to have
It is a bit of a mind fuck. Having to decide which good players to leave out, instead of choosing which of the least shit players to put in.
Pretty sure I remember a period just after Fleming retired and just before Taylor emerged that the Black Caps had a top six with NO test hundreds between them, only McCullum and Vettori batting down the order had any. ( shudders )
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On Bracewell.....what has he done to justify a recall ? After his amazing match winning performance ( which due to a mental health day I watched in its entirety vs Aus ) his career has been quite the disappointment to me. Surely there’s younger, better guys around ?
He’s the kind of guy I really wanted to have a good career but I feel time has run out.
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@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial They moved it to Southampton. Not being played at Lords but at the Hampshire bowl or Rose bowl (whatever they call it).
Ah yeah, forgot about that. I think that brings a spinner into the mix which is a pain as it we lose a 'quick' and/or an allrounder.
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Batting avgs
Blundell 38.43
Latham 42.25
Kane 54.31
Roscoe 45.83
Nicholls 43.92
Watling 38.11
CDG 37.03
Santner 25.05
Jamieson 56.58 of those are in the all time top 30 for NZ
4 in the top 13.If you look down the current list of avgs the last era that had more than one top bat was the 1930s
The averages there equal an innings of 375. If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
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@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
Where though - for Conway I mean.
I wouldn't be thinking about Santner in the test team. If we play a spinner, and you're correct we probably need to at the Ageas Bowl (that place has so many names!), then it will have to be a genuine turner of the ball. Ajaz?
Tough team to pick.
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@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
Where though - for Conway I mean.
can he roll the arm over? Gentle offies perhaps?
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@nzzp said in Black Caps tour to England:
can he roll the arm over? Gentle offies perhaps?
Not that I am aware of, but he seems to be able to do most things. Maybe we could have a keeper at each end and BJ could bowl too. Could be like the old days where everyone got a bowl.
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As some of the IPL players won't be involved in at least the 1st test against England it will be a good opportunity to see some of the other players before the WTC final. Ravindra, for example, is a batsmen who also bowls left-arm spin.
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@bovidae said in Black Caps tour to England:
As some of the IPL players won't be involved in at least the 1st test against England it will be a good opportunity to see some of the other players before the WTC final. Ravindra, for example, is a batsmen who also bowls left-arm spin.
I don't know much about him. Is he a real turner of the ball or more flight and deception?
A shame that Ish couldn't get the red ball to work for him.
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@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
Where though - for Conway I mean.
I wouldn't be thinking about Santner in the test team. If we play a spinner, and you're correct we probably need to at the Ageas Bowl (that place has so many names!), then it will have to be a genuine turner of the ball. Ajaz?
Tough team to pick.
I know what you mean about Santner. He seems to be a fixture because he is a backstop bat and can eat up some overs.He certainly isn't a weapon.
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@snowy Honestly, I don't know much about his bowling.
This is what Stead had to say about Ravindra on Cricinfo.
Ravindra, the 21-year-old allrounder who plays for Wellington, has been selected on the back of centuries for New Zealand A against West Indies - both the full side and the A side - earlier this season while he also made a half-century against a Pakistan A (Shaheens) attack that included Mohammad Abbas and Naseem Shah. He then returned from a dislocated shoulder which disrupted his season to score 138 against Northern Districts and claimed six wickets in the final game of the season with his left-arm spin. "Rachin's been earmarked as a star of the future since his Under-19 days and we've been really encouraged by the advancement in his game this season, with both bat and ball," New Zealand coach Gary Stead said. "He's obviously an opening option, but also has the ability to bat in the middle order which combined with his left-arm finger spin make him a great asset to our squad." -
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
Where though - for Conway I mean.
I wouldn't be thinking about Santner in the test team. If we play a spinner, and you're correct we probably need to at the Ageas Bowl (that place has so many names!), then it will have to be a genuine turner of the ball. Ajaz?
Tough team to pick.
I know what you mean about Santner. He seems to be a fixture because he is a backstop bat and can eat up some overs.He certainly isn't a weapon.
To me, if we want to be truly top of the world class we need an attacking spinner. Patel and the other guy that toured on the sub continent fit that bill, just don't get a look in in less spin friendly conditions
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@snowy if he is going to be squeezed in I would have him replace Nichols. Nichols rode his luck big time this season.
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@crazy-horse said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy if he is going to be squeezed in I would have him replace Nichols. Nichols rode his luck big time this season.
I agree, but it is a tough call.
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@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crazy-horse said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy if he is going to be squeezed in I would have him replace Nichols. Nichols rode his luck big time this season.
I agree, but it is a tough call.
really tough! Drop a bloke averaging 44?
http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=HM Nicholls&role=batsman
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@nzzp said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crazy-horse said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy if he is going to be squeezed in I would have him replace Nichols. Nichols rode his luck big time this season.
I agree, but it is a tough call.
really tough! Drop a bloke averaging 44?
http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=HM Nicholls&role=batsman
It's either him or Blundell.
Nichols was incredibly lucky this year. Didn't someone post a while ago what his scores would have looked like this year if all the chances he gave were taken? It wouldn't be pretty reading.
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@crazy-horse said in Black Caps tour to England:
if all the chances he gave were taken?
Probably the key to it. The stats don't say it all.
So do we stick with the tried and tested? Nicholls has done us proud but there are questions.
Go with Blundell, who has also done well, albeit a shorter time, or gamble on the shiny new thing that hasn't played test cricket? I'd back him to succeed but it is a seriously big call.
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@snowy I read the same article as Bovidae. Since that century vs Oz, Blundell has been solid-ish, but not spectacular.
Tough call, but I'm pretty sure it will be Blundell rather than Nicholls who misses out if Conway is in.
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I’m gonna say this carefully, and it breaks my heart to do so.......
But I’ve had a think and I reckon Rossco is in more danger than Nicholls. What has he done for us lately ? ( and again, this seems fucked up for a guy averaging just under 46 )
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@mn5 use the England tests as trials - If it has to be Rosco his injury can flare up....
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 use the England tests as trials - If it has to be Rosco his injury can flare up....
It’s rarified air for us as fans and we should enjoy every minute of how the team is going and the selection headaches. But again, it would be sad to see a genuine NZ great dropped. If it does happen does Nicholls automatically inherit the 4th spot and Conway 5th or do they swap ?
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@canefan said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@snowy said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
If we can squeeze in Conway and a couple of bowlers that's pretty strong
Where though - for Conway I mean.
I wouldn't be thinking about Santner in the test team. If we play a spinner, and you're correct we probably need to at the Ageas Bowl (that place has so many names!), then it will have to be a genuine turner of the ball. Ajaz?
Tough team to pick.
I know what you mean about Santner. He seems to be a fixture because he is a backstop bat and can eat up some overs.He certainly isn't a weapon.
To me, if we want to be truly top of the world class we need an attacking spinner. Patel and the other guy that toured on the sub continent fit that bill, just don't get a look in in less spin friendly conditions
Well obviously India shit all over us in that regard, their spin bowling all rounders are amazing talents.....but the flipside is our pace bowling unit is better than theirs.
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@mn5 They won't drop Rossco for a debutant.
He made 70 vs Pakistan in the Boxing Day test and February last year made 109* and 73* vs India in ODIs.
Those latter ones are a year ago, but recent enough in these covid days.
If everyone is fit, it will be Blundell or Conway - probably dependent on their results in the lead in tests.
The real trick will be not to waste that preparation.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 They won't drop Rossco for a debutant.
He made 70 vs Pakistan in the Boxing Day test and February last year made 109* and 73* vs India in ODIs.
Those latter ones are a year ago, but recent enough in these covid days.
If everyone is fit, it will be Blundell or Conway - probably dependent on their results in the lead in tests.
The real trick will be not to waste that preparation.
Yeah its very unlikely I’ll give you that......can we turn Nicholls into a test opener ? Justin Langer did a fine job of this......
Looking back on that amazing Aussie team of that era I think they shoehorned him there to fit in all the other talent. They dropped a bloody good opener in Slats and Tubbs had retired......so it was a ballsy move but Langer became part of one of the greatest pairs of all time so fair to say it paid off.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
I’m gonna say this carefully, and it breaks my heart to do so.......
But I’ve had a think and I reckon Rossco is in more danger than Nicholls. What has he done for us lately ? ( and again, this seems fucked up for a guy averaging just under 46 )
I was thinking through the contenders based on consistency rather than averages. Latham (and surprisingly CDG) have the highest rates of 50s/100s per match. Of course Kane and Ross are well up there as well.
Nicholls record looks OK but there are some worrying stats. I think that of the 17 times that he has scored more than 50 only 4 have been away.Is he a home tracker?
Taylor's consistency has fallen off a wee bit as he ages but if there is one guy that I would back to put a cherry on the top of his career and depart the scene with a big contribution it is him. -
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
I’m gonna say this carefully, and it breaks my heart to do so.......
But I’ve had a think and I reckon Rossco is in more danger than Nicholls. What has he done for us lately ? ( and again, this seems fucked up for a guy averaging just under 46 )
I was thinking through the contenders based on consistency rather than averages. Latham (and surprisingly CDG) have the highest rates of 50s/100s per match. Of course Kane and Ross are well up there as well.
Nicholls record looks OK but there are some worrying stats. I think that of the 17 times that he has scored more than 50 only 4 have been away.Is he a home tracker?
Taylor's consistency has fallen off a wee bit as he ages but if there is one guy that I would back to put a cherry on the top of his career and depart the scene with a big contribution it is him.You’re quoting some “what if’s” with Taylor. Mind you Conways whole test career is just that at this stage.....
I’m still a fan of a blokes average as being an extremely good indication of ability regardless of how much you rip it apart ( within reason ). Nicholls started with a bad technique and looked all at sea initially but 37 tests at just under 44 ? Which places him either 3rd or 4th best bat in the team depending how you view it ? Fuck yeah I’ll take that.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@chris-b said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 They won't drop Rossco for a debutant.
He made 70 vs Pakistan in the Boxing Day test and February last year made 109* and 73* vs India in ODIs.
Those latter ones are a year ago, but recent enough in these covid days.
If everyone is fit, it will be Blundell or Conway - probably dependent on their results in the lead in tests.
The real trick will be not to waste that preparation.
Yeah its very unlikely I’ll give you that......can we turn Nicholls into a test opener ? Justin Langer did a fine job of this......
Looking back on that amazing Aussie team of that era I think they shoehorned him there to fit in all the other talent. They dropped a bloody good opener in Slats and Tubbs had retired......so it was a ballsy move but Langer became part of one of the greatest pairs of all time so fair to say it paid off.
I don't think Nicholls has the game to open in tests. He's a middle order stroke-maker.
But Conway, like Langer, is effectively a specialist No.3 who could be promoted to open, without needing major modifications to his game. Main question for me is whether he's good enough and experienced enough to roll the dice over Blundell.
Some other suggestions that we bat him at 6, BJ at 7 and don't play either CDG or Santner.
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@chris-b Conway is good enough, it's pretty obvious when you watch him he is a more talented bat than Blundell. Experience might be the problem at this stage.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@chris-b said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 They won't drop Rossco for a debutant.
He made 70 vs Pakistan in the Boxing Day test and February last year made 109* and 73* vs India in ODIs.
Those latter ones are a year ago, but recent enough in these covid days.
If everyone is fit, it will be Blundell or Conway - probably dependent on their results in the lead in tests.
The real trick will be not to waste that preparation.
Yeah its very unlikely I’ll give you that......can we turn Nicholls into a test opener ? Justin Langer did a fine job of this......
Looking back on that amazing Aussie team of that era I think they shoehorned him there to fit in all the other talent. They dropped a bloody good opener in Slats and Tubbs had retired......so it was a ballsy move but Langer became part of one of the greatest pairs of all time so fair to say it paid off.
I don't think Nicholls has the game to open in tests. He's a middle order stroke-maker.
But Conway, like Langer, is effectively a specialist No.3 who could be promoted to open, without needing major modifications to his game. Main question for me is whether he's good enough and experienced enough to roll the dice over Blundell.
Some other suggestions that we bat him at 6, BJ at 7 and don't play either CDG or Santner.
I’d be keen on that although it places a bit of strain on the four bowlers considering there’s not many options from 1-6 ( KW I’m looking at you, its not enough to be captain and our best batsman ever, you need to roll the arm over too )
