Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative
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I'd like to start a thread that focuses on the work around Covid that is not widely reported on Corporate Media, Google, Twitter and facebook.
A thread for the people with questions and observations that go against a very uniform set of messages coming from basically every country and government in the world. Indeed the most obvious feature of the global response has been it's uniformity.
I don't want to clog up the other covid threads so hopefully this a place where we can examine topics, and present covid discoveries and patterns that aren't being aired in the same way as the other covid information.
A sandbox to chuck around ideas and hypotheses. An open discussion or brainstorm. Perhaps just a place to vent!
It's my hope that scientific data and an emphasis on objective observations will be a feature, rather than ad hominem attacks and over emotive signalling, but whatevs.
I've had comments directed to me about ferners not having the time to read, watch or listen to the information I've posted here. Totally get that and it's a fair point.
So how about if, where I can, I disseminate the info I'm finding and pass it on here? At every level of authentic and effective information there needs to be steps where people summarize complex information. Brett Weinstein, Kory and others do just that for plebs like me. (and get censored and demonetized by youtube and facebook for just discussing topics). I view their stuff and would like to pass on their findings as they've presented them. Just a parrot, repeating stuff from those talented enough to decipher science.
So, to get the ball rolling:
The Curious Case of Ivermectin
There is a hypothesis out there that Ivermectin (ivm) is a remarkably effective and safe drug with verifiable success in lowering infection rates, symptoms and death from Covid.
For six months I've been following Dr Pierre Kory, an American ICU Lung specialist who has been treating thousands of Covid patients. He treats them face to face. I've heard and seen him speak for over 6 hours in a calm evidence based way about the success and subsequent censoring of ivm. I've seen him plead with a senate comittee hearing for the NIH to simply look at the global evidence he has that ivm saves lives. This is important because these aren't "quotes" in an article. These aren't unnamed studies. These aren't the messages of a public relations spokesman. These are the uncensored words of a frontline covid specialist, communicating the same succinct information over and over on different formats for many hours at at time. Straight from the horses mouth with details - dates, organisations, studies, people's names, protocols, etc. Already he has more robust output than any government or health board representative who peddle in generalisations and illogical contradictions, (lab leak origins being the most glaring).
He has pioneered frontline procedures for treating covid and has founded this organisation and website:
He says he, and many other Drs throughout the world have conducted randomized control trials on the use of ivm as both a prophylactic (preventative medicine - e.g. we'd all take a pill a week as of now) and an effective treatment for covid infections. He claims, among other things over 55 RCT studies administered to frontline covid health personnel with 800 subjects in one study. In the ivm administered group, no covid infections. In the control group 56 covid infections. For those with covid, a meta analysis (looking at many RCT's, very high on the evidence pyramid) he reports a 62% decrease in death (the UK could have gone from 138000 deths to 40k with ivm in use).
he treats and has treated thousands of covid sufferers with ivm and swears by it's efficacy. He cites colleagues globally who do the same.
Ivermectin needs to be discussed openly and widely and is currently being censored on youtube and facebook.
So, what's ivm?
Discovered in 1970 something in Japanese soil by a Jap scientist who was awarded the 2015 nobel prize.
It's reffered to as a molecule
Known as an antiparasitic but in the last 10 years has been studied as an antiviral
Has erradicated river blindness and elephantitus in Africa
Has been administerd globally over 40 years, 4 billion times
Has been designated as safe for children
Has little or no side effects
Is probably as safe and common as penicillin, maybe more.
Even if it didn't work on covid, it's still totally safe to be taken. No harm.
Censored in social mediaBasically it's a fluke existing medicine that studies show works in some way to help prevent getting covid and easing of disease and death after getting covid.
It's purposely seldom talked about in public. An Aussie MP Craig Kelly made a stand for it several months ago asking for it to be studied. The response from the PM was to ridicule Kelly at a press conference and get a laugh from the reporters by stating, with a big grin "Craig Kelly is not a doctor" - the irony obviously lost on Professor Scott Morrison. An Australian lab discovered it's effectiveness on covid at cellular level in petrie dish experiments.
Is off patent - nobody will make any sizeable income off ivm's widespread dispersal or useReasons against ivm use by the WHO, CDC and NIH:
Not enough studies
Studies not high quality
Studies too short
No peer review of studies
As of last week, not so safe from WHO and Merck (who made billions as the patent holder over the previous 40 years)
we are working on another new covid oral medicine - Fauci announced a 3.2 billion dollar grant to discover a new drug from scratch, just last week.Confused?
Read enough of my incoherent waffle?
Yeah me too.
Dr Kory and Brett Weinstein went on Joe Rogan 2 days ago. It's another 3 hour slog of depressing yet informative discussion. The clips have been banned from youtube but it's on spotify.
Here are some clips before they get yeeted, hopefully. They have been edited for time but are a true representation of the podcast and previous ones.
first is under 5 minutes:
next is 10 minutes:
12 minutes
Ok, my motivation to get some alternative info out to all of us has been hampered by how long it takes to present the info and how poor I am at summarising so:
Please feel free to ask me any questions and I think I have access to answers about most of this ivm stuff. I'll get back to you if you're interested.
if you want to deride this info, have a go but remember I too, will challenge your argument. Their is a hiearchy of evidence at play here.
Bottom line:
We have an incredibly safe drug that we've been using for 40 years that looks to be very helpful in stopping the suffering of COVID yet it is actively dismissed, censored and ridiculed by all authorities governing this covid pandemic. The same authorities that have been caught misleading the public on numerous occasions.It's time to have a look at it. Why is there only one course of action in a pandemic nearing 18 months old?
Even if it doesn't work, it's harmless so why the suppression?
At worst it does nothing. At best it saves the life of someone you love.
Worth a crack Nige ( 90s reference, cheezels advertisement)
happy to address any questions - just not immediately, please
oh and please feel absolutely free to ignore this thread, me, and my posts. That's totally reasonable and I encourage you to do so if think this is all bollocks. Seriously - it's guitar lessons and entirely voluntary
(I'm old, I don't need public acceptance
)Dr Kory at the senate hearing, 28 minutes:
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Mate, I certainly admire your energy and passion on this. And a genuine thanks for bringing stuff to mind that most of us probably wouldn't have seen otherwise.
I probably won't engage too much in this thread, and thought I'd explain why, given you've gone to the effort of setting the forum.
Truth be told, I'm just tired. Tired of talking about it, tired of reading about it, tired of it dominating our lives.
I feel like we have pegged our sails to the vaccine rollout now, and I just want to hit that full steam. I want us to get to 75% or whatever the nunber is, and then I want us to just stop talking about it altogether. Singapore style. No more updates on numbers, no more pressers. No more restrictions on movement. Just life as normal, with 1 more virus out there to live with.
Am I asking too much?
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@voodoo said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Mate, I certainly admire your energy and passion on this. And a genuine thanks for bringing stuff to mind that most of us probably wouldn't have seen otherwise.
I probably won't engage too much in this thread, and thought I'd explain why, given you've gone to the effort of setting the forum.
Truth be told, I'm just tired. Tired of talking about it, tired of reading about it, tired of it dominating our lives.
I feel like we have pegged our sails to the vaccine rollout now, and I just want to hit that full steam. I want us to get to 75% or whatever the nunber is, and then I want us to just stop talking about it altogether. Singapore style. No more updates on numbers, no more pressers. No more restrictions on movement. Just life as normal, with 1 more virus out there to live with.
Am I asking too much?
No
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@voodoo said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Mate, I certainly admire your energy and passion on this. And a genuine thanks for bringing stuff to mind that most of us probably wouldn't have seen otherwise.
I probably won't engage too much in this thread, and thought I'd explain why, given you've gone to the effort of setting the forum.
Truth be told, I'm just tired. Tired of talking about it, tired of reading about it, tired of it dominating our lives.
I feel like we have pegged our sails to the vaccine rollout now, and I just want to hit that full steam. I want us to get to 75% or whatever the nunber is, and then I want us to just stop talking about it altogether. Singapore style. No more updates on numbers, no more pressers. No more restrictions on movement. Just life as normal, with 1 more virus out there to live with.
Am I asking too much?
would have said almost exactly the same, im tired of being scared (mainly for other more vulnerable people) and my layperson brain understands the idea of vaccines and herd immunity
@Siam also wanted to say, read you post (lucky i was on my comp rather than phone!), interesting points, well laid out, if i was smarter and had more energy i might be on board
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@voodoo said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Mate, I certainly admire your energy and passion on this. And a genuine thanks for bringing stuff to mind that most of us probably wouldn't have seen otherwise.
I probably won't engage too much in this thread, and thought I'd explain why, given you've gone to the effort of setting the forum.
Truth be told, I'm just tired. Tired of talking about it, tired of reading about it, tired of it dominating our lives.
I feel like we have pegged our sails to the vaccine rollout now, and I just want to hit that full steam. I want us to get to 75% or whatever the nunber is, and then I want us to just stop talking about it altogether. Singapore style. No more updates on numbers, no more pressers. No more restrictions on movement. Just life as normal, with 1 more virus out there to live with.
Am I asking too much?
Perfectly fine response and one I'd definitely recommend.
Thanks for the honesty too and I actually agree with everything you're saying.For some fucked up reason I can't shift this nagging bullshit from my head for any length of time. i guess it's because my wife is in another country, and it's like a jail sentence and I'm the spouse pouring over the details of the case.
My passion is more through helplessness than wonder and writing it down may serve two purposes:
It allows me to vent. Allows me to practice writing. Allows me tonot feel so helplessand
maybe someone benefits from it. i'm resigned to the fact that no one will and then it'll be just me here blogging all alone. That's fine!!
honestly, please everyone, take no notice of this if you don't want to. Please. i appreciate the courtesy of replying but feel no guilt or obligation by ignoring it or never contributing.
Just don't deny my free speech if possible please
The other differnce we have mate, is that I see no possiblity of things returning unless we can change tact.
Also IVM can save lives....
Thanks for your comment voodoo, typically thoughtful and considerate.
as you've said, please just let me and others, perhaps, probably not ;), to play in this sandbox
Gotta go, league's on and they've got 40 minutes to capture my attention
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@kiwiwomble that's cool mate, thanks for the reply. Covid fatigue is very real!
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@frank said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
What is the reason YouTube has given for banning stuff concerning Ivermectin vs what you think is the reason.
Interested in the censorship argument more than science.Weinstein relays that the channel warnings and strikes are given with a vague notice titled "Spam, Deceptive practices and Scams".
The second strikes were for "Deceptive Medical Information" According to him, their community guidelines state that youtube can alter their criterion for these guidelines at any time. He finishes by saying that it is impossible to fully adhere to their regulations except after the fact when they deliver their verdict/judgement.From 10 minutes in the Spotify episode.
The struck videos were 2 phds, one the inventor of mrna vaccine technology having a discussion. Two or three blokes at a table. No graphics, just talking.
My theory: all of this is boring run of the mill corruption and wealth generation. Like the mainstream media TV companies, I suggest that the pharma advertising budget is one of the primary sources of income, hence don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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Okay... as a one-off reply, as I am definitely accepting your invitation to ignore this, and other of your similar threads/posts from now on (I have been doing so anyway, but the fact you felt the need to start a fucking thread.... I felt obliged for a one-off explanation)
- Every 1 hour 30 video you post - I typically just do a 2 minute google of the guys name who did it, and find they're either: a discredited scientist (or - an ENGINEER!) in a completely different field than what they're talking about; a fad-diet blogger who's got an opinion on shit - because... well, everybody does; or an interview with somebody with very very vested interests
- Also for every one of those hour+ youtube "you gotta watch this, this guy knows what he's talking about, at least think about it" videos you watch... do you watch ANY of the hour+ youtube videos by debunking the points one by one? If you have - kudos. To be fair - I've bothered with about 1 minute of one... and it seems they're typically done by people with about the same amount of expertise in the field as "your guy", but... I'm curious.
In general... every time you mock somebody for "your chicken mcNugget piece of scientific research" vs your "Franz Botha in his Prime Youtube video"... it's just... wow, you're coming off as hard to believe as Mike Moore at his worst. - Mostly - I do wonder - WHY? Why do you so much WANT these "alternative narratives" to be true?
Genuine question. Every time anybody questions, or fact-checks, one of the claims - you seem to alter the "alternative narrative" to something else. And sure... fair enough, if you've got more than one question. But then, weeks later, you bring it back to the first point again. Legitimately - WHY? Why do you so SO much want there to be some sort of conspiracy?
The last point - I really am interested in. You seem so balanced when talking about Cricket, and other shit. Why is this so much of a trigger to what... I know you don't think it is... but... fucking border-level bat-shit?
Edit:
- I can understand a point of view where maybe the whole "lockdown" thing has gone overboard in the risk-v-benefit.
- I can understand, but think people are fucking nuts, the thought that "wearing masks" is some sort of imposition
- But... sometimes you seem to be suggesting things like "keeping people apart from each other won't help prevent a virus spreading", and "wearing masks won't help prevent an airborne/contact-borne virus spreading"
- ... just ...
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Jesus, the guy literally said "ignore". We aren't all interested in the same things.
I've got a gripe with the whole belittling peoples views or opinions on the fern at the moment,seems to be happening a lot, more than it used to.
Chill the fuck out, move along, block users, whatever. -
@siam said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
@kruse thank you for your contribution. Nothing but insults. No problem.
Woah. I upvoted that reply when it just said "thank you for your contribution".
I gave some honest thoughts.. didn't think there was anything derogatory or insulting in there.
Apologies if there were.
Edit: reading back... yeah, I can see where offense could(/should) be taken.
If I re-submitted it without some of the inflammatory crap, could we start again? -
@frank said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
What is the reason YouTube has given for banning stuff concerning Ivermectin vs what you think is the reason.
Interested in the censorship argument more than science.Frank, I stumbled across a 4 minute video explaining what you asked.
The vid shows some links to fb and YouTube policies as well so you could check there if you wanted. It seems they specifically mention ivm.
Hope this is helpful, no worries if it ain't. Fast forward 1 minute for maximum efficiency.
The Weinsteins are talking about yt taking down footage of the senate hearing.
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Here's a study done with ivm and health care workers in India conducted in October November 2020:
Watching the video is not necessary but the Dr summarises the findings in the description in an easily readable way. 10 seconds of reading.
Basically:
3000+ subjects, all health care workers2384 took ivm, 1147 non takers
2 oral doses ivm 300ug(micrograms = 21 mg for a 70 kg person)/kg 72 hours apart. Apparently ivm costs $183 per kilogram = less than 1 cent per dose
Developed covid symptoms: 331 workers
6% ivm takers 131 workers
15% non takers 200 workersTested positive: PCR test 201 workers
Ivm 2%
Non takers 11.7%Side effects: 1.8% reported adverse effects, mild and self limiting ( that means no medical intervention)
Conclusion
2 doses of ivm (300 ug/kg given 72 hours apart) as chemoprophalyxis among health care workers reduces the risk of COVID-19 infection by 83% in the following month.Earlier, at least 20 -25 HCWs were getting infected with virus daily. After the workers started taking ivm the infection rate is 1 or 2 per day.
Note: I'm just repeating information in case anyone is interested.
Worth noting ivm is recommended WITH and alongside a vaccine.
Nowhere have I found recommendations that ivm replaces a vaccine. It's a tool to help health effects of COVID-19
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Based on what I've read/watched, it seems ivm was suppressed/ignored because if there is an effective COVID treatment, emergency use authorisation for a potential vaccine cannot be granted. So instead of 8 months to get a vaccine through trials and approved, it would've been 3yrs.
By the time the studies were done that showed ivm was remarkably effective (mid-2020), it was "too late" as the sunk cost fallacy applied to vaccine development.
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@tewaio said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Based on what I've read/watched, it seems ivm was suppressed/ignored because if there is an effective COVID treatment, emergency use authorisation for a potential vaccine cannot be granted. So instead of 8 months to get a vaccine through trials and approved, it would've been 3yrs.
By the time the studies were done that showed ivm was remarkably effective (mid-2020), it was "too late" as the sunk cost fallacy applied to vaccine development.
very similar to what i have understood and i understand due to the processes they took the fastest route, what i cannot understand if it is proven it does work in the mean time, can we not just get this available for everyone....screw the bio tech companies, they will make it back elsewhere
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The major curiosity with ivm is that it's been discovered as a bit of a gift to be used with other treatments.
An analogy used is your house is burning down but you're not allowed to use a bucket of water while you wait for the fire brigade.
The frustration comes with a proven safe, widespread medicine that has shown to be very effective at lowering transmission and death. Just what the doctor ordered...
The doctors working with ivm and patients everyday believe it could actually halt the pandemic and make the current virus extinct.
The dismissing of the studies and active, identifiable censoring and obfuscation by social media, AAP, Reuters and health authorities ( reports that doctors aren't allowed to prescribe it in the US), is incredibly alarming.
The communicated emphasis has been on people's health and death rates, yet we have a safe molecule with documented antiviral capabilities that is knowingly not being used.
Some suggest the EUA situation is being used to suppress ivm for profit. I.e. if ivm is present it's illegal to use emergency (scantily trialled) emergency solutions. Ivm costs less than 1 cent per dose. Remdisver, the current treatment drug costs $3000 per dose. A new wonder drug will be also patented. Basically the US government has granted 3.2 billion to the pharmaceutical industry to make a new ivm.
The people with knowledge of ivm hypothesise that profits are being put before health, and it's hard to disagree, and yet not hard to imagine.
Even a solution where the molecule could be slightly altered and patented for profit would still get the job done.
No one championing ivm will profit from it
If ivm is properly proven not to work or be less effective than remdesvir (not a great set of results thus far), then no harm. Currently covid treatment for the infected but not hospitalised in America is Tylenol and come back " if your lips turn blue".
I wonder what other treatment protocols non hospitalised but covid positive outpatients get?
Research with ivm treating long covid is now being undertaken with encouraging results, early doors though of course. Ivm binds to and nullifies the spike protein at the heart of the trouble and adverse vaccine effects. Keep this in mind as long covid becomes an issue.
The Ivermectin situation is very disconcerting and questions the ethics and motivations of our authorities. I'd have thought we'd be throwing the kitchen sink at this pandemic but widespread treatment solutions, 18 months on, are not readily evident.
I'd swell with pride if Jacinta gave kiwis the ivm option in a voluntary controlled prophylactic trial before covid hits. Now that would be leading the world!
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@tewaio said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Based on what I've read/watched, it seems ivm was suppressed/ignored because if there is an effective COVID treatment, emergency use authorisation for a potential vaccine cannot be granted. So instead of 8 months to get a vaccine through trials and approved, it would've been 3yrs.
By the time the studies were done that showed ivm was remarkably effective (mid-2020), it was "too late" as the sunk cost fallacy applied to vaccine development.
Scandalous if actually true.
Govt and major vaccine companies having an implied understanding that if the biotech companies are going to go ahead, any therapy that may come along in the meantime will not be allowed. I would have thought the risk of this occurring should be the biotech's and their shareholders to bear.
Again....if true. -
I was quite ready to ignore this thread, but then thought why not take a look and challenge all that I know. A couple of questions jump out at me:
@siam said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
He says he, and many other Drs throughout the world have conducted randomized control trials on the use of ivm as both a prophylactic (preventative medicine - e.g. we'd all take a pill a week as of now) and an effective treatment for covid infections. He claims, among other things over 55 RCT studies administered to frontline covid health personnel with 800 subjects in one study. In the ivm administered group, no covid infections. In the control group 56 covid infections. For those with covid, a meta analysis (looking at many RCT's, very high on the evidence pyramid) he reports a 62% decrease in death (the UK could have gone from 138000 deaths to 40k with ivm in use).
so 62% decrease in deaths, if we'd all taken this right at the start. So lets be fair, thats not really likely. Assume it was ready to go at the end of wave one, and the infrastructure was there to get it into everybody, all are willing to take it & govt funding went into this instead of vaccine (is it realistic to think they'd fund both)? Latest estimate of vaccine saves is around 14k. So that means UK is 142k deaths with nothing, and hence your number is 40k + (142-40) * 0.38 = just under 80k. So 60k vs 14k with vaccine. Significant.
@siam said in Alternative Covid - Challenging the Narrative:
Here's a study done with ivm and health care workers in India conducted in October November 2020:
Watching the video is not necessary but the Dr summarises the findings in the description in an easily readable way. 10 seconds of reading.
Basically:
3000+ subjects, all health care workers2384 took ivm, 1147 non takers
2 oral doses ivm 300ug(micrograms = 21 mg for a 70 kg person)/kg 72 hours apart. Apparently ivm costs $183 per kilogram = less than 1 cent per dose
Developed covid symptoms: 331 workers
6% ivm takers 131 workers
15% non takers 200 workersTested positive: PCR test 201 workers
Ivm 2%
Non takers 11.7%Was this done using official methods? Were each subject confined to exactly the same life and with the same demographics? I won't criticise you for being wary of MSM reporting, but standards apply to drug testing as well. An article I'll post below says it's untested. So perhaps it hasn't gone through the official channels for general population use. Remember it's all a game of probability. A virus which kills 1% and hospitalises 5% is much worse than a vaccine which kills 0.01% and hospitalises 0.1%. Where are the IVM stats on this?
Side effects: 1.8% reported adverse effects, mild and self limiting ( that means no medical intervention)
Conclusion
2 doses of ivm (300 ug/kg given 72 hours apart) as chemoprophalyxis among health care workers reduces the risk of COVID-19 infection by 83% in the following month.Earlier, at least 20 -25 HCWs were getting infected with virus daily. After the workers started taking ivm the infection rate is 1 or 2 per day.
No other factors have changed at all?
Worth noting ivm is recommended WITH and alongside a vaccine.
Nowhere have I found recommendations that ivm replaces a vaccine. It's a tool to help health effects of COVID-19
If the results above are spot on, why would you need a vaccine?
You'll note Ivermectin trials are now underway in Britain, sitting with Oxford scientists.
Covid: Ivermectin to be studied as possible treatment in UK
Scientists begin to give the drug to people at home with symptoms to see if it can keep them out of hospital.
If it proves to be as effective as you research indicates, then it'll be fascinating to see the traction is gains as to whether or not this should have been the right process. The UK media may be a bunch of awful self serving fuckwits, but they do hold people to account & it's telling that there is very little available information on this.
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