Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror
-
The aftermath of 9/11 attacks is compelling viewing ,does not leave the US administration in a good light ..Cowboys come to mind ..!
-
I watched this about a week ago and was pleasantly surprised at how good and non-partisan it was for a Netflix special.
-
9/11 was indeed a turning point. Yesterday was the fifth anniversary, September 11th, 2016. Six weeks before election, Hillary Clinton is captured on videotape collapsing at Ground Zero and being thrown into a wagon like a side of beef. That video went viral. Everybody starting talking about her health. (Rumour said she pooped her diaper.) It might have swung the election against her. Momentous, to put it mildly. “Zero path to 270” was no longer an impossibility for her opponent. Big Tech has been on mop-up duty ever since, doing everything in their power to silence citizen journalists (at least the ones who post content damaging to the Democratic Party) and purge their followers.
It was the shoe that changed everything.
-
i watched the first episode last night, it's very well done
i nearly cried watching the footage as the 2nd plane hit. I hadn't seen it in ages and it's still mid-blowing to this day.
some pretty handy interviews so far.
-
I am decades late to this one, but this is a good (long) read from 2002 that's well worth brewing a coffee for the probably very few people who haven't read Rick Rescorla's story in depth before: The Real Heroes Are Dead.
This is from when the North tower was hit and he was in charge of security for Morgan Stanley in the South tower.
Hill hurried downstairs, and then the phone rang. It was Rescorla, calling from his cell phone.
“Are you watching TV?” he asked. “What do you think?”
“Hard to tell. It could have been an accident, but I can’t see a commercial airliner getting that far off.”
“I’m evacuating right now,” Rescorla said.
Hill could hear Rescorla issuing orders through the bullhorn. He was calm and collected, never raising his voice. Then Hill heard him break into song:
Men of Cornwall stop your dreaming;
Can’t you see their spearpoints gleaming?
See their warriors’ pennants streaming
To this battlefield.
Men of Cornwall stand ye steady;
It cannot be ever said ye
for the battle were not ready;
Stand and never yield!
Rescorla came back on the phone. “Pack a bag and get up here,” he said. “You can be my consultant again.” He added that the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate and to order people to stay at their desks.
“What’d you say?” Hill asked.
“I said, ‘Piss off, you son of a bitch,’ “ Rescorla replied. “Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it’s going to take the whole building with it. I’m getting my people the fuck out of here.” Then he said, “I got to go. Get your shit in one basket and get ready to come up.”
At the time I'd always meant to read into some of the human interest stories as they emerged months later, but for whatever reason I think I hid from them a bit after the weeks of saturation coverage of the impacts and collapses, and then the various conspiracies began emerging. As Mariner notes - still mindblowing 20 years on.
-
@donsteppa said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
I am decades late to this one, but this is a good (long) read from 2002 that's well worth brewing a coffee for the probably very few people who haven't read Rick Rescorla's story in depth before: The Real Heroes Are Dead.
This is from when the North tower was hit and he was in charge of security for Morgan Stanley in the South tower.
Hill hurried downstairs, and then the phone rang. It was Rescorla, calling from his cell phone.
“Are you watching TV?” he asked. “What do you think?”
“Hard to tell. It could have been an accident, but I can’t see a commercial airliner getting that far off.”
“I’m evacuating right now,” Rescorla said.
Hill could hear Rescorla issuing orders through the bullhorn. He was calm and collected, never raising his voice. Then Hill heard him break into song:
Men of Cornwall stop your dreaming;
Can’t you see their spearpoints gleaming?
See their warriors’ pennants streaming
To this battlefield.
Men of Cornwall stand ye steady;
It cannot be ever said ye
for the battle were not ready;
Stand and never yield!
Rescorla came back on the phone. “Pack a bag and get up here,” he said. “You can be my consultant again.” He added that the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate and to order people to stay at their desks.
“What’d you say?” Hill asked.
“I said, ‘Piss off, you son of a bitch,’ “ Rescorla replied. “Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it’s going to take the whole building with it. I’m getting my people the fuck out of here.” Then he said, “I got to go. Get your shit in one basket and get ready to come up.”
At the time I'd always meant to read into some of the human interest stories as they emerged months later, but for whatever reason I think I hid from them a bit after the weeks of saturation coverage of the impacts and collapses, and then the various conspiracies began emerging. As Mariner notes - still mindblowing 20 years on.
IF you want Human Interest stories, you should watch on Nat Geo: 9/11 One Day in America.
I'm two episodes in, it's 100% human stories. Nothing else. Lots of footage that I hadn't seen before & it's absolutely compelling, if not completely shocking & depressing.
I have a borderline sick level of interest in the twin towers part of 9/11. Can't explain why. I'm probably well into 1000 hours of reading / watching about it.
-
I'm not sure I want to watch any of these 9/11 documentaries as I was living in the US at that time but do remember exactly where I was when the first plane hit (on a bus going to work, being 1 h behind EST). I remember the disbelief of my work colleagues and the sombre mood around campus on that day, and the days immediately following it. I did visit the WTC ground zero in 2003.
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@donsteppa said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
I am decades late to this one, but this is a good (long) read from 2002 that's well worth brewing a coffee for the probably very few people who haven't read Rick Rescorla's story in depth before: The Real Heroes Are Dead.
This is from when the North tower was hit and he was in charge of security for Morgan Stanley in the South tower.
Hill hurried downstairs, and then the phone rang. It was Rescorla, calling from his cell phone.
“Are you watching TV?” he asked. “What do you think?”
“Hard to tell. It could have been an accident, but I can’t see a commercial airliner getting that far off.”
“I’m evacuating right now,” Rescorla said.
Hill could hear Rescorla issuing orders through the bullhorn. He was calm and collected, never raising his voice. Then Hill heard him break into song:
Men of Cornwall stop your dreaming;
Can’t you see their spearpoints gleaming?
See their warriors’ pennants streaming
To this battlefield.
Men of Cornwall stand ye steady;
It cannot be ever said ye
for the battle were not ready;
Stand and never yield!
Rescorla came back on the phone. “Pack a bag and get up here,” he said. “You can be my consultant again.” He added that the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate and to order people to stay at their desks.
“What’d you say?” Hill asked.
“I said, ‘Piss off, you son of a bitch,’ “ Rescorla replied. “Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it’s going to take the whole building with it. I’m getting my people the fuck out of here.” Then he said, “I got to go. Get your shit in one basket and get ready to come up.”
At the time I'd always meant to read into some of the human interest stories as they emerged months later, but for whatever reason I think I hid from them a bit after the weeks of saturation coverage of the impacts and collapses, and then the various conspiracies began emerging. As Mariner notes - still mindblowing 20 years on.
IF you want Human Interest stories, you should watch on Nat Geo: 9/11 One Day in America.
I'm two episodes in, it's 100% human stories. Nothing else. Lots of footage that I hadn't seen before & it's absolutely compelling, if not completely shocking & depressing.
I have a borderline sick level of interest in the twin towers part of 9/11. Can't explain why. I'm probably well into 1000 hours of reading / watching about it.
Cheers, will do. I can relate to that level of interest - I've done something similar over the years with the Titanic (possibly another reason why I've avoided delving too deep into 'yet another' disaster...!)
With disasters I think there's a big mixture of;
- Just trying to figure the enormity of it all out
- The challenge of "dead men tell no tales" in figuring out Who did What and Why
- "History never reveals its alternatives" (yet they are still fascinating to ponder)
- And the slightly morbid fascination of wondering what we'd do faced with the same situation.
As an aside, I suspect there are a few parallels (setting aside temperature...) between being in both Towers at or above the impact zones and being on the deck of the Titanic after circa 2.06am. The choices individuals and families were faced with being both limited and horrendous.
-
@donsteppa Yeah, I get what you mean although I think I find the physics and engineering of the whole thing the most fascinating point.
One of the things that the One Day In America series does is make me think what I would do in those situations. Some of the answers seem really obvious in hindsight but at the time, without real life examples of prior events, how could you possibly know? Some of the choices people made at the time still seem unfathomable to me, namely
- Some people in the south tower evacuated after the north was hit, but then went back up
- People who got out and then didn't immediately get as far away as possible from WTC
- Journalists who rushed in and tried to interview emergency services
It's just mind blowing.
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Yeah, I get what you mean although I think I find the physics and engineering of the whole thing the most fascinating point.
Good point, that is something very significant that I forgot (among other things, the physics of the collision with the iceberg, at least as it's traditionally described and shown on screen, don't quite work.)
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Some of the choices people made at the time still seem unfathomable to me, namely
Some people in the south tower evacuated after the north was hit, but then went back up
People who got out and then didn't immediately get as far away as possible from WTC
Journalists who rushed in and tried to interview emergency servicesHave there been any estimates of how many died on the ground near the WTC from being (voluntarily) too close? Emergency responders are horrifically understandable, but it sounds like a few people stayed too close with little need. Yep, in hindsight it's surprising that people left and then went back into the South tower (and that order not to evacuate) while jumpers were visible on a precariously burning massive skyscraper next door. The benefits of hindsight though I suppose...
One that also caught my attention reading the articles in the last few days; the groups heading upwards hoping for rooftop rescue. For the North tower that's completely understandable given the lack of alternatives. And for the South tower it's understandable as well I guess, except you want to somehow shout at them to force a way down Stairwell A while they still can...
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
I have a borderline sick level of interest in the twin towers part of 9/11. Can't explain why. I'm probably well into 1000 hours of reading / watching about it.
I've always found it difficult to explain how impressed I was by the simplicity of the plan and its execution. I can admire that and also feel considerable sadness and empathy (unusual for me) for the first responders and people trapped.
It's one of the few memories indelibly etched in my brain too: Living in the mess, in my room when a mate comes and tells me that a plane has hit the WTC. Go down the hall to the tv room and watch with a bunch of other officers while discussing the terrible accident. Have a cigarette and thinking about work the next day. See the second plane hit and silence. I turned to the room and said "well boys, the world as we know it has changed. We're going to be busy from now on".
-
@donsteppa said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
Good point, that is something very significant that I forgot (among other things, the physics of the collision with the iceberg, at least as it's traditionally described and shown on screen, don't quite work.)
I'll admit I do look at it completely with any conspiracy theory hats off. I don't believe a word of them & believe it played out as we saw.
Have there been any estimates of how many died on the ground near the WTC from being (voluntarily) too close? Emergency responders are horrifically understandable, but it sounds like a few people stayed too close with little need. Yep, in hindsight it's surprising that people left and then went back into the South tower (and that order not to evacuate) while jumpers were visible on a precariously burning massive skyscraper next door. The benefits of hindsight though I suppose...
Not that I've seen honestly. I imagine that's impossible to count really.
One that also caught my attention reading the articles in the last few days; the groups heading upwards hoping for rooftop rescue. For the North tower that's completely understandable given the lack of alternatives. And for the South tower it's understandable as well I guess, except you want to somehow shout at them to force a way down Stairwell A while they still can...
Yeah, if you are trapped you have to play what's in front of you I guess. Up or Down. One of the interviews on the Nat Geo show the guy goes down the lift then as stepping out, they all agree to go back to their office. I just can't fathom decision. Plane has flown into building right beside you. Get the fuck out of the area!!
@antipodean said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
I've always found it difficult to explain how impressed I was by the simplicity of the plan and its execution. I can admire that and also feel considerable sadness and empathy (unusual for me) for the first responders and people trapped.
Yes totally agree. Very simple plan but astonishingly effective. All broadcast live on global TV.
It's one of the few memories indelibly etched in my brain too: Living in the mess, in my room when a mate comes and tells me that a plane has hit the WTC. Go down the hall to the tv room and watch with a bunch of other officers while discussing the terrible accident. Have a cigarette and thinking about work the next day. See the second plane hit and silence. I turned to the room and said "well boys, the world as we know it has changed. We're going to be busy from now on".
I was at Credit Suisse in London. We were told we couldn't leave the office because of it. I was in a real lackies job so we went to the trading floor to watch the TV's. We were then kicked off them and told to return our desks. Had 3 housemates in Canary Wharf tower all completely shitting themselves (for those that don't know that at the time was the tallest and most prominent office tower in London). Eventually we were told we could leave, so we immediately went to the pub and continued watching it there. Absolutely surreal day.
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
we were told we could leave
Who was ordering you all around? If just managers, etc - pretty fucken surprised you listened!
-
@bones said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
we were told we could leave
Who was ordering you all around? If just managers, etc - pretty fucken surprised you listened!
Combination of messages coming from Building & Canary Wharf Security through our managers. To be honest, we didn't really question them as we were all a bit deer headlights.
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
I'll admit I do look at it completely with any conspiracy theory hats off. I don't believe a word of them & believe it played out as we saw.
Agreed. That any official report or inquiry into a disaster rarely gets every last detail right (that dead men don’t tell tales cliche again) doesn’t mean conspiracy. I’m wondering if there’s been a major disaster yet that doesn’t have some ‘alternative’ theory or book written on it…
-
@majorrage said in Turning Point 9/11 and the War on Terror:
...He added that the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate and to order people to stay at their desks.
“What’d you say?” Hill asked.
“I said, ‘Piss off, you son of a bitch,’ “ Rescorla replied. “Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it’s going to take the whole building with it. I’m getting my people the fuck out of here.”
...
At the time I'd always meant to read into some of the human interest stories as they emerged months later, but for whatever reason I think I hid from them a bit after the weeks of saturation coverage of the impacts and collapses, and then the various conspiracies began emerging. As Mariner notes - still mindblowing 20 years on.
...
Lots of footage that I hadn't seen before & it's absolutely compelling, if not completely shocking & depressing.I have a borderline sick level of interest in the twin towers part of 9/11. Can't explain why. I'm probably well into 1000 hours of reading / watching about it.
MICK FROM HERE (it seems I have mucked up my citing of the post to which I m responding).
I was a boy when John Kennedy was assassinated - the fear we felt then and the likelihood of world war was repeated by my children on the phone at 6 am the next day in 2001.
The impact of Kennedy's death was similarly profound and I too have done what you describe throughout life - reports, books, documentaries on Kennedy, the lot. I ceased when I concluded the truth will never be known (too many competing scripts, too many players, too many agendas).
The import of, and madness behind, the Twin Towers attacks will quickly fade and be obscured. The USA has been busy surrendering since and the trainee intelligentsia at the country's universities have been well coached in accepting the superior legitimacy of their nation's enemies.
The other point of interest to me - "the Port Authority was telling him not to evacuate" - is that despite the enormous resources directed by corporates and bureaucrats to crisis planning, how to manage scary horrid event events, weekend workshops - the invented vernacular and the para-military garb of the experts - there was chaos from the very beginning. 37 page emergency response plans favoured by the likes of your quoted Port Authority Safety Committee are useful then only to prop doors open.
In the main people are saved by individuals with initiative and personal authority in their manner, who "play what is in front of them".
For example, when Cyclone Tracy flattened Darwin in 1974 Prime Minister Whitlam sent Major-General Alan Stretton in (with three wars under his belt) with both responsibility and authority to act. Stretton strode in with his "Lead, follow or get out of the way" mindset, heard what the medicos had to say about health risk and evacuated 75% of the population of about 50,000 within 5 days. "Where are you taking us" they might ask, his people would answer "We'll both know when we land".
Try that in the modern world and those whose lives are being saved would bleat "mah rights", "due process", "no consultation", "oh the mental anguish - where's me compensation, eh?"
I have witnessed the subordination of purpose to process ramp up during the last 25 years or so and this alone has greatly diminished the decision making capability of a couple of generations now - stupid, stupid, stupid!
-
@donsteppa rescoria was an amazing bloke. His life is an adventure book
