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    All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023

    Sports Talk
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    • Tim
      Tim last edited by Duluth

      Lets start at number one, loosehead prop.

      Joe Moody is 33 and can barely carry the ball now, is an average defender, and hasn't been a dominant scrummager at international level for at least two seasons. Still good in the maul. Only in the running as a starter, IMO. If he's in our first choice world cup 23 then we're probably in trouble.

      The other options in the squad that were allowed to play test rugby were Bower and Tu'inukuafe. Neither are what you'd call dynamic. Tu'inukuafe really only in there for scrummaging and maul work. Bower as injury cover.

      DeGroot is more athletic, but scrummaging and ability to play at test level are unexamined.

      Further options are Aidan Ross and Alex Hodgman. Ross was very good in SRA, but faded in SRTT. Hodgman got suspended for a particularly stupid high tackle in SRA, but came back pretty well, and was very good in the SRTT final.

      Apparently there's a young guy at the Crusaders, but did he play much NPC? I didn't notice him.

      Atu Moli may play rugby again someday.

      I suspect that Ofa Tu'ungafasi, with an off-season to recover from injury, will return to his 2019 role, and play a lot at loosehead.

      kiwi_expat Chris sparky 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
      • kiwi_expat
        kiwi_expat @Tim last edited by kiwi_expat

        @tim can we add Saula Mau to the list?

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119511215/super-rugby-why-140kg-teen-prop-saula-mau-excites-highlanders-and-baby-blacks

        Tim 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • Tim
          Tim @kiwi_expat last edited by Tim

          @kiwi_expat Has he played NPC? I know he's young, but I thought he was a tighthead?

          EDIT:

          Tighthead prop Saula Ma’u arrived in Dunedin in 2018 from Auckland Grammar having already been identified as an elite player with selection in the NZ Schools team that included current Blues player Sam Darry and Crusaders prop Tamaiti Williams.

          Highlanders invest in the future | Highlanders Rugby Club Limited Partnership

          Highlanders invest in the future | Highlanders Rugby Club Limited Partnership
          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • Chris
            Chris @Tim last edited by

            @tim said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

            Apparently there's a young guy at the Crusaders, but did he play much NPC? I didn't notice

            Tamati Williams he was injured through the NPC
            played LH during SR last season.

            But I hear he is switching to TH for 2022

            Tim 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
            • Tim
              Tim @Chris last edited by

              @chris Thanks Chris.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • B
                bobily2 last edited by

                fc91ff85-6994-432b-9c93-a20f9487b593-image.png

                I've taken last years Super Rugby stats and adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins.

                gt12 Bones Tim 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 7
                • gt12
                  gt12 @bobily2 last edited by

                  @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                  fc91ff85-6994-432b-9c93-a20f9487b593-image.png

                  I've taken last years Super Rugby stats and adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins.

                  Makes you wonder what Hodgman did wrong, how was he left out for Bower?

                  B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                  • B
                    bobily2 last edited by

                    546889de-621e-4c66-9d5a-27ddecfda5e1-image.png

                    The Australian props, as a comparison. Angus Bell is a beast - though he only played about 3 games. I imagine over more games, his average running metres would decrease.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                    • B
                      bobily2 @gt12 last edited by

                      @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                      @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                      fc91ff85-6994-432b-9c93-a20f9487b593-image.png

                      I've taken last years Super Rugby stats and adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins.

                      Makes you wonder what Hodgman did wrong, how was he left out for Bower?

                      I don't imagine he would've gone worse in the scrum than Bower? I can't remember, though

                      gt12 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • gt12
                        gt12 @bobily2 last edited by

                        @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                        @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                        @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                        fc91ff85-6994-432b-9c93-a20f9487b593-image.png

                        I've taken last years Super Rugby stats and adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins.

                        Makes you wonder what Hodgman did wrong, how was he left out for Bower?

                        I don't imagine he would've gone worse in the scrum than Bower? I can't remember, though

                        He has pretty long levers by comparison which may not help, but from the other side, whereas Bower is a bit small Hodgman has considerable size to use around the park - as supported by those stats.

                        B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                        • B
                          bobily2 @gt12 last edited by

                          @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                          @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                          @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                          @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                          fc91ff85-6994-432b-9c93-a20f9487b593-image.png

                          I've taken last years Super Rugby stats and adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins.

                          Makes you wonder what Hodgman did wrong, how was he left out for Bower?

                          I don't imagine he would've gone worse in the scrum than Bower? I can't remember, though

                          He has pretty long levers by comparison which may not help, but from the other side, whereas Bower is a bit small Hodgman has considerable size to use around the park - as supported by those stats.

                          Yea, you'd expect his size would mean he's more likely to have impact at a ruck/tackle too, which wouldn't be reflected in those stats.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • Bones
                            Bones @bobily2 last edited by

                            @bobily2 that is some godawful reading for Joe & Karl.

                            Tim 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Tim
                              Tim @Bones last edited by Tim

                              @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                              @bobily2 that is some godawful reading for Joe & Karl.

                              Might be time for both to be dropped, unless they have stellar seasons in SR.

                              Hodgman, Ross, and De Groot, with Tu'ungufasi covering both sides?

                              Oli Norris as bolter?

                              gt12 Bones 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
                              • Tim
                                Tim @bobily2 last edited by

                                @bobily2 Where are those stats from? I've found the Rugbypass data to be pretty poor.

                                B Dan54 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • gt12
                                  gt12 @Tim last edited by

                                  @tim said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                  @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                  @bobily2 that is some godawful reading for Joe & Karl.

                                  Might be time for both to be dropped, unless they have stellar seasons in SR.

                                  Hodgman, Ross, and De Groot, with Tu'ungufasi covering both sides?

                                  From @Chris post above, Williams might be being set up to be the new Ofa/Moli.

                                  I'd personally prefer Ofa to focus on TH and us develop another both side option.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                  • Bones
                                    Bones @Tim last edited by

                                    @tim sounds good to me. I thought Norris had a bit of a (maybe rednblack) fan club here?

                                    Tim 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • Tim
                                      Tim @Bones last edited by

                                      @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                      Norris

                                      I added him in an edit shortly after my initial post.

                                      Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Bones
                                        Bones @Tim last edited by

                                        @tim yeah I saw, I was just surprised he hadn't really been talked about already. I know nothing of him, but the stats look handy.

                                        gt12 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • gt12
                                          gt12 @Bones last edited by gt12

                                          @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                          @tim yeah I saw, I was just surprised he hadn't really been talked about already. I know nothing of him, but the stats look handy.

                                          He's had fuck-all game time so far, but I hope he turns out good. That data doesn't have total minutes played, but I assume his are really low.

                                          B Tim Bones 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • B
                                            bobily2 @Tim last edited by

                                            @tim said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                            @bobily2 Where are those stats from? I've found the Rugbypass data to be pretty poor.

                                            2021 Super Rugby Aotearoa

                                            2021 Super Rugby Aotearoa

                                            The data is from Opta, so the stats provider that NZ rugby uses.

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                            • B
                                              bobily2 @gt12 last edited by

                                              @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                              @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                              @tim yeah I saw, I was just surprised he hadn't really been talked about already. I know nothing of him, but the stats look handy.

                                              He's had fuck-up game time so far, but I hope he turns out good. That data doesn't have total minutes played, but I assume his are really low.

                                              I'll try include actual mins played in anything else I put out there. Ollie Norris had 300 mins.

                                              gt12 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                              • Tim
                                                Tim @gt12 last edited by

                                                @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                He's had fuck-up game time so far, but I hope he turns out good. That data doesn't have total minutes played, but I assume his are really low.

                                                Yeah, there will be guys who come off the bench late in the game, and will probably get relatively more run metres and less tackles because of that.

                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                • Bones
                                                  Bones @gt12 last edited by

                                                  @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                  He's had fuck-up game time so far,

                                                  Damning.

                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                  • gt12
                                                    gt12 @bobily2 last edited by

                                                    @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                    @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                    @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                    @tim yeah I saw, I was just surprised he hadn't really been talked about already. I know nothing of him, but the stats look handy.

                                                    He's had fuck-up game time so far, but I hope he turns out good. That data doesn't have total minutes played, but I assume his are really low.

                                                    I'll try include actual mins played in anything else I put out there. Ollie Norris had 300 mins.

                                                    I love this data btw, it's really cool!

                                                    B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                    • B
                                                      bobily2 @gt12 last edited by

                                                      @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                      @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                      @gt12 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                      @bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                      @tim yeah I saw, I was just surprised he hadn't really been talked about already. I know nothing of him, but the stats look handy.

                                                      He's had fuck-up game time so far, but I hope he turns out good. That data doesn't have total minutes played, but I assume his are really low.

                                                      I'll try include actual mins played in anything else I put out there. Ollie Norris had 300 mins.

                                                      I love this data btw, it's really cool!

                                                      Great, I'll try and share little snippets of it where it might be relevant. I don't have much for NPC or All Blacks, unfortunately. But if people find reliable sources for these I can see if i can do something with those too.

                                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                                                      • Bovidae
                                                        Bovidae last edited by

                                                        Tu'inukuafe, and Laulala for that matter, played much better when they were at the Chiefs. So did Manu.

                                                        I would be investing time into de Groot and Norris over the next 2 seasons.

                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                        • sparky
                                                          sparky @Tim last edited by sparky

                                                          @tim I rate both De Groot and Hodgman, Bower less so. Karl T is a strength man but doesn't offer much with the ball in hand.

                                                          B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                          • P
                                                            ploughboy last edited by

                                                            really hoping moli can get back on field. i thing he is listed as a loosehead at chiefs. norris needs to improve scrumming and was second pick for waikato at loosehead. great prospect great workrate but improvements needed to get to next level

                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                            • B
                                                              bobily2 @sparky last edited by bobily2

                                                              @sparky said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                              @tim I rate both De Groot and Hodgman, Bower less so. Karl T is a strength man but doesn't offer much with the ball in hand.

                                                              Karl T does actually seem to be okay on attack - he just doesn't carry as often as some of the props. Similarly, he doesn't make many tackles. Presumably he needs to keep working on his fitness.

                                                              As much as I like the guy, unless he is winning scrums, there doesn't seem to be much reason to be picking him ahead of some of these other options e.g. Hodgman.

                                                              Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                              • Bones
                                                                Bones @bobily2 last edited by

                                                                @bobily2 yeah, similar to Franks at the end of his career - unless he's absolutely smashing it at scrum time instead of just being fairly reliable, there's no point unless nobody else can be fairly reliable.

                                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                • mariner4life
                                                                  mariner4life last edited by

                                                                  Ypu could always rely on Franks to move bodies at ruck time. He was really excellent at it

                                                                  Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                  • Bones
                                                                    Bones @mariner4life last edited by

                                                                    @mariner4life if he got there

                                                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                    • C
                                                                      cgrant last edited by

                                                                      October 2023 might be a year too far for Moody, and a year too early for the likes of Norris and Brewis.
                                                                      Bower's scrummaging and physicality are not at the required level against teams such as England, Ireland, France and SA.
                                                                      So it is urgent to develop players like De Groot and Hodgman. They are young, big, dynamic and physical. Their scrummaging needs a lot of improvement but this can be fixed. But I am more worried about their lack of mongrel. They must be tested during the series against Ireland where they would face the world's best THP. A serious challenge that should provide some answers or more head-scratching.

                                                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                      • Crucial
                                                                        Crucial last edited by

                                                                        Norris looks like he warrants closer watching from those stats as does Numia.

                                                                        Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                        • Bones
                                                                          Bones @Crucial last edited by Bones

                                                                          @crucial yeah, can't say I've paid huge attention to his scrummaging, but I don't recall him being that bad. He's often doubted for his size but he doesn't show it around the field.

                                                                          If he can come on, hold up his side and provide a point of difference I'm all for having a look.

                                                                          Edit: Numia I mean.

                                                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                          • Bovidae
                                                                            Bovidae last edited by Bovidae

                                                                            Norris is a converted no.8 so is still learning his trade. I thought he showed a big improvement in his scrummaging last year for both the Chiefs and Waikato. There are quite a few young props in the 21-23 yr age bracket who just need more game time and experience.

                                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                            • B
                                                                              bobily2 last edited by

                                                                              With Newell's squat record, and a rugbypass article on Tamaiti Williams moving to tighthead, I've been thinking a little more about tighthead props recently, so I've run some numbers for them.

                                                                              These are the stats for the NZ tightheads over last years Super Rugby competitions. Once again, I've adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins - though the "Time" column now gives a rough idea of how many mins they spent on the field (rough because I've had to make some assumptions, like every game being 80 mins, due to data limitations).

                                                                              a2beac6f-860d-4390-b472-4e85a945c276-image.png

                                                                              And as a comparison, the props from the Australian teams.

                                                                              74bf9273-7514-4353-9d99-7d435d4829d2-image.png

                                                                              gt12 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                                                              • gt12
                                                                                gt12 @bobily2 last edited by

                                                                                @bobily2 said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:

                                                                                With Newell's squat record, and a rugbypass article on Tamaiti Williams moving to tighthead, I've been thinking a little more about tighthead props recently, so I've run some numbers for them.

                                                                                These are the stats for the NZ tightheads over last years Super Rugby competitions. Once again, I've adjusted them for the amount of game time. The figures are essentially what we might expect from each player if they were to play for 80 mins - though the "Time" column now gives a rough idea of how many mins they spent on the field (rough because I've had to make some assumptions, like every game being 80 mins, due to data limitations).

                                                                                a2beac6f-860d-4390-b472-4e85a945c276-image.png

                                                                                And as a comparison, the props from the Australian teams.

                                                                                74bf9273-7514-4353-9d99-7d435d4829d2-image.png

                                                                                Fletcher Newell looks like the new Franks alright. Fuck-all metres, no defenders beaten, passes from the pod, misses 2 tackles for every 10 made.

                                                                                Doesn't stack up that well, but I'm still confident for him.

                                                                                Jager looks good, Laulala looks very average, and Ofa's stats show his upside. Mafileo looks like a Lomax that can scrummage.

                                                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                • B
                                                                                  bobily2 last edited by

                                                                                  Newell only played 50 odd mins, so might not be enough to go off. He was a very good runner a couple years back for the u20 team, but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets that trained out of him.

                                                                                  I might see if I can get his NPC stats (off rugby pass - ew)

                                                                                  gt12 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                  • Crucial
                                                                                    Crucial last edited by

                                                                                    Those Oz stats show up Tupou's lack of tackle workrate. Maybe he is told to hang back to punch the ball up from a turnover or maybe he's a lazy fecker when he hasn't got the ball?

                                                                                    Machpants antipodean 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
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