The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail)
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So $301m is to be spent on 13 new cycleways. The CCC is a fucking Muppet show lunatic asylum. They actually believe this will encourage people to cycle to work. I'm all for cutting down emissions, but this is a waste of money of biblical proportions. I'm not going to suggest the $301m be thrown at the new stadium as many might suspect, but I am going to suggest $50m should be as that's probably what'll be needed to get it built now to spec, and the other $250m goes into light rail links running from high density suburbs past a handful of major facilities and directly into the centre of the four avenues.
The light rail idea was floated pre quakes. From memory, at the time several lines were proposed, to run west to east past CU and Riccarton Mall, the hospital and into the city centre, another from marshlands way (it'd make sense now to start in Prestons) past The Palms, down Fitzgerald Ave and then into the city centre and I think there was a line from the east (Linwood or maybe Ferrymead into town).
I'd love to see this eventuate. I think it'd be heavily patronised if it can be made to work on the right arterials. I'd also have a main line from somewhere in Halswell all the way up Lincoln Rd and into the CBD. So basically a cross shape, intersecting near the Square and spanning across most of the city.
Off the main lines you might have a handful of 'branches' and short links in order to avoid having to travel all the way into the city from say Ilam to then get to Aidanfield or Wigram.
Anyone have a ball park idea what something like this may cost?
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@shark billions...it would cost billions
The new airport rail in melbourne it going to cost $15 billion and that only has one new station (and upgrade of another) and half of it is along and existing rail corridor and theyre only upgrading the existing things like power and signals...imagin doing everything from scratch
But, I worked on the rebuild and thought this at the time, huge sections of Riccarton Rd, columbo street, blenheim rd, morehouse ave and brougham street have had to be ripped up and re laid to replace underground utilities, so if they ever were going to start a light rail then after the earthquake was the time to do it. I always thought one in each direction (riccarton rd/blenheim, memorial drive to the airport - colombo to cranford - out to ferrymead and sumner) would have been a great start, get people interested and then build on it later
re the cycle way, and i said it in the stadium thread, i do think the cycles ways are not as much about convincing people to start cycling but more a response to the number of people that already do, my experience was chch hadf a pretty big cycling community, and you can see why, nice and flat etc
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@kiwiwomble I think Christchurch would be a great cycle city. Plenty of parkland already and fairly logical layout.
I see a lot of those cities in Europe with minimal vehicle traffic and think it looks rad.
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As for light rail, ask Sydney how that's going...
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light rail appears to be the biggest money sink hole ever invented. Not sure i have seen a project run on time, to cost, and provide the benefits.
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one of the best new proposals i have seen in melbourne, trackless, battery operated trams....thats called a bus
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@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
light rail appears to be the biggest money sink hole ever invented. Not sure i have seen a project run on time, to cost, and provide the benefits.
If the Croydon line is anything to go by it usually gets people around no faster than a bus. Too many stops, to slow to get to speed etc etc
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@crucial all jokes aside i do find the Melbourne system pretty good, enough dedicated lines to keep a pretty good schedule
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How bout a monorail ?
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@mn5 said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
How bout a monorail ?
@nta said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
As for light rail, ask Sydney how that's going...
...see above
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@shark Light rail has none of the advantages and all the disadvantages of rail and busses.
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@antipodean if done right it does, doesn't have to deal with traffic to the same extent as buses and doesn't need the same land investment for dedicated rail corridors
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@kiwiwomble said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@antipodean if done right it does, doesn't have to deal with traffic to the same extent as buses and doesn't need the same land investment for dedicated rail corridors
Sure. Tell that to Canberra and Sydney. Light rail is like socialism - just never implemented properly.
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@antipodean said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@kiwiwomble said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@antipodean if done right it does, doesn't have to deal with traffic to the same extent as buses and doesn't need the same land investment for dedicated rail corridors
Sure. Tell that to Canberra and Sydney. Light rail is like socialism - just never implemented properly.
20th century solution.
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@antipodean i don't know a lot about canberra but sydney is largely down to jamming an overly ambitious project into a very dense, winding and hilly city retrospectively, plus a bit of COVID added in
Chch might have been retrospective, but a city famous for its wide, flat and straight roads that already has an admittedly touristy tram in the CBD...newer sections of melbourne are a much better comparison in my mind, grid network of roads etc and they work
Less light rails inherent faults and more people poorly implementation
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Only thing I'd add is that Sydney cycle lanes suck balls. Nobody uses them, they make no sense and they take a cyclist 2x longer to get across town.
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@kiwiwomble said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@crucial all jokes aside i do find the Melbourne system pretty good, enough dedicated lines to keep a pretty good schedule
Melbourne is great. It shows the benefit of not pulling up all that infrastructure like all the other cities did. Sydney's light rail seems to be just a mechanism to transfer huge amounts of money to Spanish company bank accounts. I don't think the Light Rail in Sydney is inherently a bad thing, it was needed out East, as those plastic lipped lot are never going to let real rail out that way, it was seemingly just badly contracted and implemented.
On the bus v tram, I have a mate who lives in Dulwich Hill, their tram line is down, re: @nta's article above, so he's had to bus the few times into the city and he's hating it due to the added time and stops.
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@kiwiwomble Those wide flat and straight roads are one of the absolutely key reasons dropping trams in the middle of a few of them makes sense in Chch. Ok I've certainly underestimated the cost of doing it, but logistically in comparison to other cities ala Sydney as an example, it's gotta be easier and cheaper.
Putting aside whether or not they're the ideal arterials to plonk trams on commercially, routes such as the airport to city centre via Memorial Ave, Fendalton Rd, Deans Ave, Riccarton Ave and Tuam St, and from the city centre via Moorhouse Ave, Ferry Rd and Main Rd to Sumner, would logistically be relatively straightforward as they're all wide enough to take trams while still retaining a lane in each direction.
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Others that scream "plonk a tram up my guts" include from Hornby Mall up Main Sth Rd, Blenheim Rd (ok a couple of obstacles to navigate there in an overbridge and the Sockburn roundabout), through the bit of land by PlaceMakers and onto Moorhouse Ave. Bazinga.
Then there's Prestons subdivision, maybe out via Mairehau Rd and into the CBD via Marshlands Rd, Hills Rd and Bealey Ave (unlike most of the others I've suggested, I wouldnt ruin Bealey Ave's picturesque central traffic island but run the trams either side of the road, if that can be made to work).
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@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@kiwiwomble Those wide flat and straight roads are one of the absolutely key reasons dropping trams in the middle of a few of them makes sense in Chch. Ok I've certainly underestimated the cost of doing it, but logistically in comparison to other cities ala Sydney as an example, it's gotta be easier and cheaper.
Just to be clear, I was agreeing, maybe not now but I feel it was a missed opportunity when earthquake repairs were being done
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@kiwiwomble yep, all good, got that.
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Light rail if done properly has advantages over both HR and buses,
By done properly I mean grade separated, prioritised tracks through densely populated urban areas.
The first thing to discount is buses. They run into capacity issues way too soon Plus the old joke about waiting for ever for a bus and then they all turn up together is true. The routes tend to concertina at areas with delays. You also have issues at the terminating station with a turnaround whereas rail simply reverses out. They are much slower mainly because of the reasons above and also because embarcation dwell times are much slower (one door etc)
Heavy rail is much more expensive to build and typically doesn't run through where the people are unless you underground it which is prohibitively expensive. It does carry even more people than LR Though but needs bigger more expensive stations and has fewer of them so the catchment area is smaller.
The other alternative is light metro which is effectively LR which is effectively LR underground with again fewer more expensive stations abut bigger trains and faster dwell times plus you can run driverless trains.
Akl Transport were ready to proceed with LR down Dominion Road to Mt Roskill until Labour got in and intervened. The plans were pretty much done and would have resolved bus capacity issues on Dominion Road. It would have meant pedestrianising Queen Street and was planned to result in the rejuvenation of Dominion Road.
Then Labour and particularly muppet Phil Twyford got involved and all that has happened is we have ended up with years of delays and now (just announced) we have a hybrid system which is trying to be all things to all people and probably (if it ever gets built) is going to fail because it is heavily compromised.
It is undergound for a long way which means nothing is done about the issues on Dominion Road, it avoids any retail centres so as not to annoy retailers but dog legs to the Uni and a housing development by Kainga Ora in Three Kings and into Onehunga and Mangere town centres to the airport. All this means it is a longer route so the speed advantages of the tunnels are then negated.
Plus most importantly it is eye wateringly expensive. For the proposed price you could build AT's original proposition plus a (much needed) similar grade separated LR system from the CBD to Westgate.
As I said originally LR done properly works well (plenty of examples overseas) The proposed Akl solution is a camel of a plan. I thought Sydney ridership had improved - although the cost and delays on that system were staggering. Mind you Sydney has had its fair share of Transport bungles the Cahill freeway and rail to the airport spring to mind.
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Given the extent of the new Auckland light rail proposal that is to be underground, I keep idly wondering why they don't convert it to heavy rail project....
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@donsteppa is it light rail? i thought city rail loop was heavy rail connecting with the wider rail network
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@kiwiwomble said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@donsteppa is it light rail? i thought city rail loop was heavy rail connecting with the wider rail network
There's the rail loop which is heavy rail - https://www.cityraillink.co.nz/ and then the new light rail proposal - which I see has a new website that I'm yet to explore... https://www.lightrail.co.nz/
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@donsteppa Cost plus the mooted extension to the north shore. HR wouldn't cope with the gradient up to Constellation Station which would mean an expensive tunnel which in turn would mean a very deep station which means poor access. Bound to be other reasons as well but that's off the top of my head
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if you could all wind back the rail bashing, its literally paying my mortgage currently
rail is great and every city should have more of it -
@dogmeat said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Light rail if done properly has advantages over both HR and buses,
By done properly I mean
See previous response.
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The fuck??? How did this get hijacked into a discussion about Auckland?
Let's get back to my Christchurch fantasy please.
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I'll just add that I'm a big fan of well designed cycleways that get lycra clad piston wristed gibbons off the roads. And excellent transit systems (Tokyo, Honkers).
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Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
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@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
You'll be flavour of the month in Kaiapoi and Rolleston.
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@mariner4life Oh, and get back on your meat taxi, Queenslander
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@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
You'll be flavour of the month in Kaiapoi and Rolleston.
those aren't even real places
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@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
You'll be flavour of the month in Kaiapoi and Rolleston.
Perhaps if those who live closer are on bikes it leaves more room on the roads for those who need to come in from further ...
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@majorrage said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
You'll be flavour of the month in Kaiapoi and Rolleston.
Perhaps if those who live closer are on bikes it leaves more room on the roads for those who need to come in from further ...
Hey CCC rate payers, let's spend all your money on bike lanes so those absconders from Selwyn and Waimak have a nice easy commute into town...love that marketing
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@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@majorrage said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@mariner4life said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
Christchurch is a tiny area of 280 square kms and less than 400k people. fucking walk or take a bus
actually, it's flat and featureless, bikes make excellent sense
You'll be flavour of the month in Kaiapoi and Rolleston.
Perhaps if those who live closer are on bikes it leaves more room on the roads for those who need to come in from further ...
Hey CCC rate payers, let's spend all your money on bike lanes so those absconders from Selwyn and Waimak have a nice easy commute into town...love that marketing
Nice attitude.
Cities with bikes are awesome. Clean, fresh and much quieter.
I’ll probably never set foot in Chch again anyway so guess my opinion ain’t relevant.
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It's the Mike Hoskings theory on bike and bus lanes.
I never see anyone using them so they're useless.
That's the fucking point you moron. If you saw queues of buses of bikes it would mean they aren't doing their job properly
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@kiwiwomble said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@shark said in The CCC And Cycleways (vs Light Rail):
@kiwiwomble Those wide flat and straight roads are one of the absolutely key reasons dropping trams in the middle of a few of them makes sense in Chch. Ok I've certainly underestimated the cost of doing it, but logistically in comparison to other cities ala Sydney as an example, it's gotta be easier and cheaper.
Just to be clear, I was agreeing, maybe not now but I feel it was a missed opportunity when earthquake repairs were being done
That was a massive missed opportunity to rethink public transport in and around Christchurch, total dropped ball there (note that's ECan, not CCC in this particular case). I remember doing a focus group on it, but it went nowhere unfortunately because everyone baulked at the cost.
