Black Caps v England
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Well, a bit going on with NZC.
Jamieson and Henry both out of the test - but we won't pick Boult, so it's Duffy and Keggelijn. Not impressed, some of the selections we get are bloody bizarre.
Was scheduled for my first trip to the Mount - 3 days of gloriousness. Unfortunately bloody Covid just reared its head and I'll now be on the couch ... this summer has been a bit average so far. Annoying.
Go the Black Caps, gutted I won't be there.
Mods: is this the most recent thread? I couldn't find another ... maybe update to NZ Cricket 22/23...
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v Engalnd:
Mods: is this the most recent thread? I couldn't find another ... maybe update to NZ Cricket 22/23...
Might as well have a new thread for the series
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For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Winter is here for cricket fans
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@canefan said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Winter is here for NZ cricket fans
FIFY.
Hopefully!
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
The decision totally smacks of Stead being pissy.
This isn't about the coach it is about the team and although Boult can't commit to a test programme he may be able to commit to a game in a crisis.
They are going to look really stupid when he takes a crowd catch off a debutant bowler being smashed around. -
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
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@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
Well, a bit going on with NZC.
Jamieson and Henry both out of the test - but we won't pick Boult, so it's Duffy and Keggelijn. Not impressed, some of the selections we get are bloody bizarre.
According to a Cricinfo article, Stead chose Kuggleijn and Duffy for their "resilience"
Could this man be any more conservative...
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players. -
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players.Being available does not mean you will be selected over a contracted player I have seen all that stuff before.
What is said to the media is not always what transpires. -
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players.Being available does not mean you will be selected over a contracted player I have seen all that stuff before.
What is said to the media is not always what transpires.My understanding is that Boult is contracted and his contract does not stop him playing tests. I will look back for the original press.
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@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players.Being available does not mean you will be selected over a contracted player I have seen all that stuff before.
What is said to the media is not always what transpires.My understanding is that Boult is contracted and his contract does not stop him playing tests. I will look back for the original press.
I believe he has not got a contract as he turned down the contract.
NZC agrees to release Trent Boult from central contract
The fast bowler's international career will be reduced, as he opts for family time and T20 leagues
from this article
New Zealand Cricket has agreed to release Trent Boult from his central contract after the fast bowler requested to spend more time with his family and to make himself available for T20 leagues. His international career is now likely to be "significantly reduced".We respect Trent's position," White said. "He's been completely honest and up-front with us about his reasoning and, while we're sad to be losing him as a fully-contracted player, he leaves with our best wishes and our sincere thanks.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players.Being available does not mean you will be selected over a contracted player I have seen all that stuff before.
What is said to the media is not always what transpires.My understanding is that Boult is contracted and his contract does not stop him playing tests. I will look back for the original press.
I believe he has not got a contract as he turned down the contract.
Yes, I had it wrong from a statement the other day.
He has turned in his central contract and David White said it was on the understanding that centrally contracted players would take precedence.
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@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
For clarity, I'd take Boult in a heartbeat if he was fit. Get another few tests out of him - losing two bowlers in short order and having to play 2 debutants is teh definition of needing a band aid.
I fear we are going to be pumped. Not looking good at all, despite my usual optimism in regard to NZ cricket performances.
Yeah - Stead saying Trent's not ruled out from anything - but, he's fit and available and we're two bowlers down. When would you pick him then?
NZC don't appear to have a hard and fast policy, so pick the best available XI.
NZCC Contracts may come into play in selections.
Stead confirmed that Boult is able to play under his contract but they have chosen to ignore his availability in favour of going down the list further.
I doubt that anyone's contract will give them 'rights' regarding selection.
Selectors probably feel that they need to blood someone else as this situation isn't going away fast and that they want to send the right message to fringe players.Being available does not mean you will be selected over a contracted player I have seen all that stuff before.
What is said to the media is not always what transpires.My understanding is that Boult is contracted and his contract does not stop him playing tests. I will look back for the original press.
I believe he has not got a contract as he turned down the contract.
Yes, I had it wrong from a statement the other day.
He has turned in his central contract and David White said it was on the understanding that centrally contracted players would take precedence.
Yes it normally is that way and if you give up your contract you understand that is the way.
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Tickner was added to the Central contracts but I don't believe Son of Sledge or Duffy have been so the priority call doesn't fit.
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Can someone enlighten me what the selectors see in Tickner?
He averages 35 with the ball in first class cricket.
He hasn't impressed with his chances for the Black Caps.
How does he keep getting selected?
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
Can someone enlighten me what the selectors see in Tickner?
He averages 35 with the ball in first class cricket.
He hasn't impressed with his chances for the Black Caps.
How does he keep getting selected?
Yes. Sort of. What would not be obvious from a look at his FC average.
- Poor (statisticsl) start to his FC career, so the headline average is not that relevant.
- Quite good for NZ A.
- More importantly, quite good for NZ A as first change, rather than new ball.
But, make no bones, it will be a stretch for him, on talent. Exacerbated by not slotting in to a settled bowling unit.
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Trent played in the T20 World Cup in November, well after he turned down his contract.
So seems like they don't have a hard and fast rule.
If they had all their centrally contracted test bowlers available I can see why they'd give Trent a miss. But, in this situation?
If they're not picking him for this test, it's pretty hard to see when they would.
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Boult will be used for white ball cricket.
I am surprised Sears wasn't selected, unless he is injured.
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Is Trent actually available? That dodgy Dubai league looks like it finished yesterday. Is he in the country? Can people get through Auckland airport at the moment in a timely predictable manner?
Boult is in a different position to e.g. Colin Munro. Hes not really a freelancer like Munro was. Times have moved on, different landscape for the true elite T20 'freelancer', Boult 's IPL team now own teams and play in 3 or 4 global leagues. He has insurance, medical care etc, but most importantly to us (NZers) he has a boss who will decide his availability.
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@Bovidae said in Black Caps v England:
Boult will be used for white ball cricket.
I am surprised Sears wasn't selected, unless he is injured.
Sears was injured last time I bothered to look. He's more of white ball bowler isn't he? Never seen him mentioned in the longer format.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
Is Trent actually available? That dodgy Dubai league looks like it finished yesterday. Is he in the country? Can people get through Auckland airport at the moment in a timely predictable manner?
Boult is in a different position to e.g. Colin Munro. Hes not really a freelancer like Munro was. Times have moved on, different landscape for the true elite T20 'freelancer', Boult 's IPL team now own teams and play in 3 or 4 global leagues. He has insurance, medical care etc, but most importantly to us (NZers) he has a boss who will decide his availability.
Media suggests that he is at home, only 1km from the venue.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
Can someone enlighten me what the selectors see in Tickner?
He averages 35 with the ball in first class cricket.
He hasn't impressed with his chances for the Black Caps.
How does he keep getting selected?
Simple, Gary Stead is out of his depth and is easily the most under-qualified coach NZ's had, even Andy Moles had a significantly better CV.
Hesson had interesting people skills, but he had an exceptional nose for a player and understood how to build depth...
One of his most underrated achievements was building two good ODI bowling attacks for the 2015 WC in 3 years (Boult, Southee, Milne, Vettori, Anderson + Mills, Henry, McClenaghan, NcCullum, Neesham). A lot of those guys fell away but you expect to have player churn.
What we didn't do under Stead and was plan ahead. At all.... and we got away with it for a while because 1) Hesson had developed the bulk of the team (including the next options) that Stead took to 2019 World Cup & beyond. 2) a golden generation of players who picked themselves - which coincided with Stead at the helm as they reached playing maturity.
The last 2-3 years have shown Stead actually having to build a team himself, it's patently obvious that he's not up to the task.
Hesson was a coach that gave youngsters a shot to learn and experience at international level games, he would mix and match in certain areas we needed to improve on and make a change as soon as he noticed something wasn't going right... he was an adaptable coach - whereas Stead is a coach that waits for everyone to get old and also just hopes for the best with the team he plays in each game...we win, we win...we lose, we lose type of coach.
He can't make decisive selection calls at the optimal & appropriate time - his selection approach is contradictory in many ways - he persists with one thing, then changes his mind on a whim, see persisting with Munro as an ODI opener throughout 2019 WC before throwing Nicholls in at the last minute possible. Stead has fixed ideas that aren't adaptable depending on different circumstances & he displays no method or consistency in his selections whatsoever.
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Tickner has the worst FC stats of the three bowlers. So let's pick him!
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It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
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There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30.
There is little to pick from once Henry and Jamieson are removed.
It's a quirk of generational talent. For a decade - we had a whole test-teams worth of seam bowling talent that couldn't get a match (McClenaghan, Bennett, Milne, Fergusson, Henry) because of the logjam ahead of them. (Edit. Even someone as fringe as Seth Rance of that era is better than the current options. Although Seth is still playing, but he's getting on)
Now, it will be the opposite, We will probably have 3 or 4 years of a merry-go-round of not-test-standard-talent bowlers elevated for bit to see how they go.
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@Rapido unfortunately our batting has the same problem.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
Yeah Totally agree Selections for One are not all on Steads head the Captains and Larsen have massive input.
And I agree I watched the Super Smash this year and I was not impressed with the talent coming though.
That maybe because I am involved with the Underage State Level Teams here and the talent is insane Honestly we could have taken 3 Qld teams to the nationals easily.
So maybe it is that I am spoilt at what I see and coach.
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
As for Tickler not a great record but he is tall and can bowl 145 plus clicks so I see why they are trying him. -
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Yes to be fair I haven't seen them watching the SS,135ks maybe but no one over 140 Tickner gets it around 145 plus.
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
Agree about O'Rouke's pace, he ain't quick. But on the plus side, he does appear to be somewhat awkward to face.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
Agree about O'Rouke's pace he ain't quick. But on the plus side, he does appear to be somewhat awkward to face.
Yep bit of bounce there short of a length could be handy.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2021/2022?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult*, Milne, Chapman, Neesham, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2022 I think?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult (ODI's), Milne, Chapman, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
Well he did win the Test Championship not all Shit.
Fleming is really a white ball coach these days.And was sounded out for a White ball job with NZC but turned it down for the big money on offer overseas in the 20/20 formats.Hesson a good man manager but not really a coach.You will find the Players coached themselves during his reign.
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Blackcaps central contracts list 2022-23: Tom Blundell, Trent Boult, Michael Bracewell, Devon Conway, Colin de Grandhomme, Lockie Ferguson, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, Tom Latham, Daryl Mitchell, Henry Nicholls, Ajaz Patel, Glenn Phillips, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Kane Williamson, Will Young
Finn Allen and Blair Tickner later replaced Trent Boult and Colin de Grandhomme.
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@Chris They had option to go with Heinrich but decided he was "too inexperienced" or some poor justification NZR would recite, ironically he was the same age (37) as Hesson when he got the job in 2013.
Edit, found it:
Heinrich Malan in final season with CD Stags
/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/VBM6Q6D7MNZSGKWFIBFZAMZI3M.jpg)
Stags coach Heinrich Malan says he'll not renew his contract at the end of coming summer
"The job of coaching the New Zealand men's team had reportedly come down to a two-horse race between Stead and Malan with the former, as it turned out, predicted to cross the line by a neck."
"Reportedly, Malan was seen as "a little too early" for the job although the irony was Hesson was appointed when he was 37."
