Brexit
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<p>I voted for the Brexit.. partly because I want to see the fall out.</p>
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<p>Over here in the UK the speculation has yet to reach fever pitch, in fact it's yet to reach simmering point even. There are many polls which give the result as a narrow stay in vote but the bookies have it as a pretty clear cut result for staying in. Anything but a narrow result. The thing is that many of the polls are online which, when you think about it are elective polls, you really only get the people that are already invested voting. There have been a few more random polls, telephone, on the street type of thing and these chime much more closely with the bookies. But of course the career politicians that we are landed with these days only ever listen to their own echo chambers and consequently are on tenterhooks as to the result.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As has been seen just recently - the NZ flag referendum, the Scottish independence referendum, people dislike and are wary of change. Various pollies point to the UKIP successes in by-elections as an indicator but in reality that is just a knee-jerk complaint about immigration or whatever the latest grouse about the EU is. When it came to the General Election the effect was quite different. Now a General Election allows a degree of acceptable change - after all you can change it back in five years time. A referendum is either a once off or maybe a 30 year decision and if things go as history would suggest the bulk of the undecided or un-committed will likely vote for no change. Funny thing is, if we were not in the EU and the referendum was called these people would likely vote to stay out IMO.</p> -
<p>I'm pretty on the fence on this one, I think anyone trying to make an economic argument for or against is basically guessing as there is no real way to know (and no control to test scientifically) - short term there will be some volatility/uncertainty for business, long term the UK will still be a large, wealthy, broadly well-educated modern economy and doing fine.<br><br>
The real issue is sovereignty and Britain's willingness to devolve powers to Brussels. Having lived here for 10.5 years on various types of visa I've born the brunt of the ever-tightening and shifting Byzantine immigration rules, and the absurdity of how much it all costs. From a purely selfish point of view I am eligible to become a naturalised UK citizen in November and would like to have the right to work anywhere in Europe, so will probably vote Remain. That said, the one and only thing all the political parties could agree on at the last general election was that they're all fairly anti immigration. Because EU migration makes up most of the net inflows, and they can't do anything about that, the laws get tougher and tougher on non-EU migrants, just so politicians can be seen to be doing something. So you get these absurd situations where:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>PhD students get detained when visiting the university they are studying at</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/01/26/arrested-humiliated-detained-how-britain-treats-foreign-stud'>http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/01/26/arrested-humiliated-detained-how-britain-treats-foreign-stud</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Unlucky users of a particular English language testing center get deported</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/03/23/disaster-for-theresa-may-as-legal-ruling-brings-student-depo'>http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/03/23/disaster-for-theresa-may-as-legal-ruling-brings-student-depo</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>A 71 year old who has lived here 50 years gets deported for being outside the UK too long for health reasons</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/american-grandad-deported-uk-after-7264500'>http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/american-grandad-deported-uk-after-7264500</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>This is seriously unjust behaviour by the Home Office which has been cornered btwn the UK people being anti-immigration (a viewpoint I don't agree with, but that's not the point) and EU membership which means they can do very little about it - so they hammer the non-EU minority. So I find myself thinking perhaps the UK would be better off leaving the EU and taking proper control over who they do and do not let in, since it clearly is such an important issue.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony of this is that by leaving the EU the UK could better control migration via visa etc, but would have less control over refugees / asylum seekers (an even more emotive issue). This is because by leaving the EU they could no longer have refugee processing centers outside UK soil (in Calais). Once asylum seekers make it onto UK soil they have more rights and there is much less the UK can do about deciding who to let in and in what numbers. So by solving one issue you open up another - I think this principle of unintended consequences can be applied to almost any issue in the Brexit debate, which is why its so complicated, and why (probably) people will ultimately go with the "safe" status quo.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="568303" data-time="1459288691">
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<p>Or it could be like Norway or Switzerland.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Only issue there is don't they have to comply with most EU laws to get access? So the arguement is "we wont have to comply! we can be like Switzerland... which has to mostly comply, and has no say in anything"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its a massive cluster fuck.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The In guys aren't able to clearly express the upsides of being in & the hard reality of being out. The out guys are just going "we'll be out & it'll all be good" without any actual explanation of anything. In any sane world an adult would go "you know what, no vote till you idiots can exactly say what we get when we vote"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Plus if its out it'll take 10 years to unwind, by which time we'll be back in again. This isn't something that'll switch overnight. Or even within a year.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The people I've spoken to that are most passionate one way or the other seem to have zero actual idea what happens. Its actually worse than the electoral reform vote in NZ back in the early 90's when people vermently supported PPR & then when they got it went "WTF is this?!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm actually of the opinion that half of it on the tory side is to do with who gets to be next leader & the Brexit thing is almost collateral damage</p> -
<p>The scary thing is that this will probably come down to the employed masses complaining about all the EU foreigners coming over to scrounge benefits (which doesn't really happen). And the unemployed masses complaining about the EU foreigners coming over to steal their jobs. Which jobs don't actually exist because they've all been outsourced to somewhere outside of the EU. And it will have nothing at all to do with having free access to the world's largest trading bloc.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="568470" data-time="1459332787">
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<p><strong>Only issue there is don't they have to comply with most EU laws to get access?</strong> So the arguement is "we wont have to comply! we can be like Switzerland... which has to mostly comply, and has no say in anything"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its a massive cluster fuck.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The In guys aren't able to clearly express the upsides of being in & the hard reality of being out. The out guys are just going "we'll be out & it'll all be good" without any actual explanation of anything. In any sane world an adult would go "you know what, no vote till you idiots can exactly say what we get when we vote"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Plus if its out it'll take 10 years to unwind, by which time we'll be back in again. This isn't something that'll switch overnight. Or even within a year.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The people I've spoken to that are most passionate one way or the other seem to have zero actual idea what happens. Its actually worse than the electoral reform vote in NZ back in the early 90's when people vermently supported PPR & then when they got it went "WTF is this?!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm actually of the opinion that half of it on the tory side is to do with who gets to be next leader & the Brexit thing is almost collateral damage</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>No they don't. The UK could stay in the free trade market and be more selective (like Norway) implementing EU laws and regulations. Now they have to implement the majority. Only a small % are optional</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The EU is not democratic. The elected parliament only has rubber stamp powers. Laws and regulations are mainly either decided by international bodies. Or by lobbyists and bureaucrats. Parliament pushes a red or green button to vote as a last resort (if show on hands etc is close) But have almost no power to form a Govt or change or introduce new laws.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One of its main driving factors (and almost has been from the start) is ever closer union. Where a new US of Europe will be set up. With the current countries would be split into regions that has one main purpose. To introduce the rules from the center</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So this vote is really about UK sovereignty / independence / democracy. Or being in the slow lane to join a new country. Ruled by an appointed elite. But no one will talk about this. The inners will focus on scare stories. And leave is just a shambles.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Calf" data-cid="568498" data-time="1459346881">
<div>
<p>The scary thing is that this will probably come down to the employed masses complaining about all the EU foreigners coming over to scrounge benefits (which doesn't really happen). And the unemployed masses complaining <span style="color:#ff0000;">about the EU foreigners coming over to steal their jobs.</span> Which jobs don't actually exist because they've all been outsourced to somewhere outside of the EU. And it will have nothing at all to do with having free access to the world's largest trading bloc.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>It does happen. Esp in London. They are good, hard workers too. But it must push wages down for the low paid. this a jobs being sent overseas makes life tough for those who haven't got the right skill set</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And this is a good document (a shorter version of a longer one) On how to leave the EU</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But the papers would sooner focus on scare stories</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://eureferendum.com/themarketsolution.pdf'>http://eureferendum.com/themarketsolution.pdf</a></div>
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<div style="font-size:21.3391px;font-family:sans-serif;">THE</div>
<div style="font-size:57.2378px;font-family:sans-serif;">Flexible Exit and Continuous Development</div>
<div style="font-size:57.2378px;font-family:sans-serif;">THE MARKET SOLUTION</div>
<div style="font-size:19.9958px;font-family:sans-serif;">THE DEFINITIVE EU EXIT PLAN FOR BRITAIN</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">First Published 2016</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">by Bretwalda Books,</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Unit 8, Fir Tree Close, Epsom, Surrey, KT17 3LD</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Copyright © 2016 Dr Richard AE North & Robert Oulds</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">All rights reserved. No reproduction of any part of this publication</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">is permitted without the prior written permission of the publisher:</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Bretwalda Books</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Unit 8, Fir Tree Close, Epsom,</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Surrey KT17 3LD</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">info@BretwaldaBooks.com / www.BretwaldaBooks.com</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Cover design and typesetting:</div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">dkb creative limited / www.dkbcreative.com</div>
<div style="font-size:16.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">5</div>
<div style="font-size:58.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Contents</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Our vision</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">6</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Introduction 8</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">The six stages</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 1: Leaving the EU</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">13</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 2: Free movement, immigration and asylum</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">17</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 3: Creating a genuine European Single Market</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">22</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 4: Restoring independent policies</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">26</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 5: Trading with the rest of the world</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">39</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">Stage 6: Domestic reform</div>
<div style="font-size:20px;font-family:sans-serif;">44</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Conclusion 47</div>
<div style="font-size:23.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">13</div>
<div style="font-size:16.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">6</div>
<div style="font-size:58.3333px;font-family:sans-serif;">Our vision</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">Our vision is for a United Kingdom as a self-governing, self-confident, free trading</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">nation state, releasing the potential of its citizens through direct democratic</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">control of both national and local government and providing maximum freedom</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">and responsibility for its people.</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">The history of Britain for a thousand years has been as a merchant and maritime</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">power playing its full role in European and world affairs while living under its</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">own laws. It is our view that the UK can flourish again as an independent state</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">trading both with our friends in the EU and the rest of Europe, while developing</div>
<div style="font-size:18.3333px;font-family:serif;">other relationships throughout the world as trading patterns evolve.</div> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="569972" data-time="1459858791">
<div>
<p>So this vote is really about UK sovereignty / independence / democracy. Or being in the slow lane to join a new country. Ruled by an appointed elite. But no one will talk about this. The inners will focus on scare stories. And leave is just a shambles.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>That is some classic Winger right there.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="570001" data-time="1459895021">
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<p>That is some classic Winger right there.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>But its true. People pretend otherwise and bury their head in the sand. But ever closer union is a key driving force of the EU. And the EU regions have already been decided on</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Have a look at Greece. The people voted for change but the EU ruling elite just said go to hell. And turned off the money tap. Once countries are in the Eu and Euro its too late. Democracy is as good as dead. Once this ever closer union is finished it is dead. Ruled by an appointed commission, lobbyists (who sit on committees to write the laws) and bureaucrats.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Some do support the death of the UK as a sovereign, democratic nation. Most are asleep</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:14px;"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3489802/Jeremy-Clarkson-announces-wants-Britain-remain-EU-help-create-United-States-Europe.html'>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3489802/Jeremy-Clarkson-announces-wants-Britain-remain-EU-help-create-United-States-Europe.html</a></span> <span style="font-size:14px;">Jeremy Clarkson announces he wants Britain to stay IN the EU to help create a 'United States of Europe' - and cheekily reveals he fancies David Cameron's wife</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="">Mr Clarkson, 55, admitted the EU had its problems but said they could be solved if leaders were held to account by the press in Britain, where 'an MP cannot even put a cup of coffee on expenses without being torn to pieces'.</p>
<p class="">'Isn't it better to stay in and try to make the damn thing work properly?' he asks. 'To create a United States of Europe that functions as well as the United States of America? With one army and one currency and one unifying set of values?'</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="570106" data-time="1459921376">
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<p>But ever closer union is a key driving force of the EU.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Well done. You've uncovered the conspiracy that's expressly stated in the preamble to the treaty that established the EU. "European Union" - there's a clue in the name. Brits understand perfectly well that the EU is about achieving a political and economic union and that federalism requires the surrender of part of their sovereignty. Many are concerned however about the limits of this. Saying that the Brits are 'asleep' is condescending rubbish.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Brexit is about whether or not the UK wants to continue to be part of the union and subscribe to the values that go along with it. Many have a view that EU values no longer reflect UK values and want out. Others want to continue with the EU project as they recognize benefits in staying in. They are all getting their say. That all sounds like democracy is working.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="570106" data-time="1459921376">
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<p>Have a look at Greece. The people voted for change but the EU ruling elite just said go to hell. And turned off the money tap.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>So I was down at the local last night and I said to my mate, 'Barry, you won't believe it. I called my bank manager and told him that my family and I had met up at the pub for a chinwag, and we've changed our mind and we don't want to pay our mortgage bills any more. Yeah, that one, the mortgage that I rescheduled last year because I didn't want to pay it then either. Yeah, the one I took out to do all the renos and build the croquet court and the fire pit out back. Yeah, the one where you told me to put all that shit on the mortgage application form. Oh, and then I told him that me and the family have told everyone we know that him and his bank are all fluffybunnys. And then I asked him for another loan. Do you know what the fucker said? He said he wouldn't give me any more money. What a prick.'</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Calf" data-cid="570153" data-time="1459933713">
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<p>Well done. You've uncovered the conspiracy that's expressly stated in the preamble to the treaty that established the EU. "European Union" - there's a clue in the name. Brits understand perfectly well that the EU is about achieving a political and economic union and that federalism requires the surrender of part of their sovereignty. Many are concerned however about the limits of this. Saying that the Brits are 'asleep' is condescending rubbish.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Brexit is about whether or not the UK wants to continue to be part of the union and subscribe to the values that go along with it. Many have a view that EU values no longer reflect UK values and want out. Others want to continue with the EU project as they recognize benefits in staying in. They are all getting their say. That all sounds like democracy is working.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I was down at the local last night and I said to my mate, 'Barry, you won't believe it. I called my bank manager and told him that my family and I had met up at the pub for a chinwag, and we've changed our mind and we don't want to pay our mortgage bills any more. Yeah, that one, the mortgage that I rescheduled last year because I didn't want to pay it then either. Yeah, the one I took out to do all the renos and build the croquet court and the fire pit out back. Yeah, the one where you told me to put all that shit on the mortgage application form. Oh, and then I told him that me and the family have told everyone we know that him and his bank are all fluffybunnys. And then I asked him for another loan. Do you know what the fucker said? He said he wouldn't give me any more money. What a prick.'</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Most (not all Clarkson does of course) Brits haven't a clue about the EU. And what its aim is even today. And that a key driver is to set up a new country and wipe out the sovereign nation state. If the UK stay in the ongoing push will be to take more and more power from the elected UK parliament / Govt and pass it to an appointed (all done behind closed doors) commission.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To say a clue is in the name is rubbish. No one is pushing the benefit of staying being a loss of independence / sovereignty. Or we will be likely taken over by a new country at some point in the future.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And re Greece. They are no longer monetary or political sovereign and have been taken over. Democracy is dead for them. The people can not do a thing. Vote in a new Govt and they can be threatened and bullied by the EU ruling appointed elite. Your example kind of applies to them as they no longer have their own central bank. When they gave it up democracy died. But how many understood the implication of doing this (joining the Euro) even today. You clearly don't. And fall back on pub type examples instead. As if this applies to all countries. Even as the US are running up big govt deficits. Likewise the UK</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="570169" data-time="1459942117">
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<p>Most (not all Clarkson does of course) Brits haven't a clue about the EU. And what its aim is even today. And that a key driver is to set up a new country and wipe out the sovereign nation state. If the UK stay in the ongoing push will be to take more and more power from the elected UK parliament / Govt and pass it to an appointed (all done behind closed doors) commission.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To say a clue is in the name is rubbish. No one is pushing the benefit of staying being a loss of independence / sovereignty. Or we will be likely taken over by a new country at some point in the future.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And re Greece. They are no longer monetary or political sovereign and have been taken over. Democracy is dead for them. The people can not do a thing. Vote in a new Govt and they can be threatened and bullied by the EU ruling appointed elite. Your example kind of applies to them as they no longer have their own central bank. When they gave it up democracy died. But how many understood the implication of doing this (joining the Euro) even today. You clearly don't. And fall back on pub type examples instead. As if this applies to all countries. Even as the US are running up big govt deficits. Likewise the UK</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_facepalm.gif" alt="f_facepalm.gif"></p> -
<p>Poor old Cameron is in a spot of bother now........not that he's done anything technically wrong - it does annoy me people here would rather get the pitchforks out and call for him to resign, rather than learn about unit trusts, or why money was sent offshore to invest in the 70s during capital controls, or what the capital gains tax allowances are etc etc </p>
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<p><sup>Ah. The 1970's in the UK. When the top rate of income tax was 98%. Now why would anyone want to take their money offshore just to save giving 98% of it to the Government?</sup></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="570853" data-time="1460114420">
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<p><sup>Ah. The 1970's in the UK. When the top rate of income tax was 98%. Now why would anyone want to take their money offshore just to save giving 98% of it to the Government?</sup></p>
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<p>I've had so many leftards from the Uk rant at me about Thatcher over the years and they always somehow forget to mention what things were like in the Uk before she got in.</p>
<p>Btw Labour here has been taken over by loons and last election they decided a shift to the left would be a surefire ticket to victory, it was a moronic call and they got their lowest election result ever .They commissioned a report into it and Bryan Gould who was in charge of the thing suggested that the only reason they lost was they didn't go far enough to the left....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Any chance you can take him back? </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="570909" data-time="1460144189">
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<p>Any chance you can take him back? </p>
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<p>Unfortunately Brian Gould is one of our own Jegga. We're stuck with him and his smarm.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="570928" data-time="1460152174">
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<p>Unfortunately Brian Gould is one of our own Jegga. We're stuck with him and his smarm.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Unfortunately hes from the naki but he was one of theirs for quite a while.If he wants to leave I'd help him pack. I would have paid good money to be at the event where Alan Duff chastised him over how much he'd spent renovating his residence at the universities expense.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He's been writing books since he got back. Looks like he's due for another one if his last dirge is anything to go by.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Rescuing_the_New_Zealand_Economy.html?id=t-zsAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en'>https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Rescuing_the_New_Zealand_Economy.html?id=t-zsAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">Without really knowing why, many New Zealanders are baffled and disturbed by the current economic turmoil of our cripplingly high interest rates and a massively over-valued New Zealand dollar that is destroying the returns of our mainstay exporters. Author Bryan Gould shows how an extreme policy straitjacket has been responsible for decades of damage to our productive economy. But importantly, this book also looks beyond the recent, depressing past to a more optimistic vision for the future, and lays out a way forward that utilises a more balanced and humane view of what economic management is about. Ultmately, it is a plea for people to become better informed and to enter into the debate about how we can revive the New Zealand economy.</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="570909" data-time="1460144189">
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<p>I've had so many leftards from the Uk rant at me about Thatcher over the years and they always somehow forget to mention what things were like in the Uk before she got in.</p>
<p>Btw Labour here has been taken over by loons and last election they decided a shift to the left would be a surefire ticket to victory, it was a moronic call and they got their lowest election result ever .They commissioned a report into it and Bryan Gould who was in charge of the thing suggested that the only reason they lost was they didn't go far enough to the left....</p>
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<p>Any chance you can take him back? </p>
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<p>It was dire in the UK in 70's and early 80's and Thatcher and her cohorts deserve recognition for that job they did. Sadly she surrounded herself with yes-men (Heseltine aside) and started believing her own headlines, became far too intransigent. She did a nasty job that was very necessary and then ideally should have moved over. The tax thing though is interesting, Howe (the chancellor) stripped away the many layers of personal taxation, made it simpler and less easy to circumvent, the top rate went from a previous high of 98% down to 40% and by all accounts the tax take went up. Less point trying to evade 40% tax than 98% I guess.</p>
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<p>As for Brian Gould. He's yours, so no.</p> -
<p>Dump out of the plane would be my choice.</p>
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<p>Yes. All the euphoria around Blair's New Labour soon disappeared. The Middle East has been his biggest undoing IMO, but in terms of damage to the UK some of the economic policies that Brown initiated have had and will continue to have more impact. Sad to say I do not see our current lot as any more heavyweight as economists.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="570933" data-time="1460153389">
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<p>Unfortunately hes from the naki but he was one of theirs for quite a while.If he wants to leave I'd help him pack. I would have paid good money to be at the event where Alan Duff chastised him over how much he'd spent renovating his residence at the universities expense.</p>
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<p>He's been writing books since he got back. Looks like he's due for another one if his last dirge is anything to go by.</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Rescuing_the_New_Zealand_Economy.html?id=t-zsAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en'>https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Rescuing_the_New_Zealand_Economy.html?id=t-zsAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en</a></p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">Without really knowing why, many New Zealanders are baffled and disturbed by the current economic turmoil of our </span><span style="color:#ff0000;"><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">cripplingly high interest rates a</span></span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">nd a massively over-valued New Zealand dollar that is destroying the returns of our mainstay exporters. Author Bryan Gould shows how an extreme policy straitjacket has been responsible for decades of damage to our productive economy. But importantly, this book also looks beyond the recent, depressing past to a more optimistic vision for the future, and lays out a way forward that utilises a more balanced and humane view of what economic management is about. Ultmately, it is a plea for people to become better informed and to enter into the debate about how we can revive the New Zealand economy.</span></p>
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<p> :think:</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="571212" data-time="1460221449">
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<p> :think:</p>
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<p>The book was written in 2008. Thats why I said he's due to write another one, arguing the exact opposite .</p> -
Well the vote is now very close and the media coverage and arguments from both sides boil down to scaremongering from one side and 'she'll be right" from the other. <br>
Boris is talking as if he will be in charge if there is an exit yet fails to explain that his ideas and concepts won't come into play unless there is a change in govt. <br>
When both Labour and the Tories are agreeing on the need to stay despite having more power in a leave situation you get rather worried at the prospect of exit. <br>
Personally I hope the result is to remain but I am job searching at the moment and don't want a recession or further uncertainty. -
<p>Ah! Here is the thread. I thought there was one but, as it turns out, I was too fucking lazy to go look. I even voted in this poll!</p>
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<p>Never mind - I've managed to find a picture that summarises both sides of the argument. Its quite a tricky pickle to split, as you can see.</p>
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<p>[attachment=2037:brexit.jpg]</p> -
<p>I voted stay just like I will in the actual referendum.</p>
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<p>I could easily get French citizenship to replace my British so its not about me, for me its a vote against isolationism. Unlike others I don't want to change the status quo just to watch the chaos. </p> -
<p>Leave is getting some serious momentum. Mainly, I think, because the leave campaigners have been much louder than the stay. Now that leave is starting to edge ahead, I do expect the campaign for stay (of which I think the arguments are much stronger) to pick up.</p>
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<p>There have been any number of staged debates over here on the subject and I'd like to say I find them amusing because of the sheer tripe that is spouted on both sides but it's not funny because it's serious stuff. I have to say, very grudgingly, that the two heavyweight politicos that have talked the most sense are Nicola Sturgeon (the latest fish based leader of the SNP) and Hilary Benn (leftist son of Tony Benn. Leftist but went to the elitist comprehensive school that is Holland Park). Both of them espoused calm, sane views without any hyperbole. The one guy that is continuously shooting himself in both feet is Boris Johnson. He not only told lies about the cost of the EU but plastered the figures all over his bus. When called out on the lie he has admitted that while it is not the actual truth it is the best way of getting the true cost of the EU over to the British public.</p>
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<p>Yeah Boris it's good to admit you have to lie to the public to get your point across. Imbecile.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="588269" data-time="1465975881">
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<p>Ah! Here is the thread. I thought there was one but, as it turns out, I was too fucking lazy to go look. I even voted in this poll!</p>
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<p>Never mind - I've managed to find a picture that summarises both sides of the argument. Its quite a tricky pickle to split, as you can see.</p>
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<p><img src="http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif" alt="attachicon.gif"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=2037'>brexit.jpg</a></p>
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<p>Why not have both?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="588324" data-time="1465986220">
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<p>There have been any number of staged debates over here on the subject and I'd like to say I find them amusing because of the sheer tripe that is spouted on both sides but it's not funny because it's serious stuff. I have to say, very grudgingly, that the two heavyweight politicos that have talked the most sense are Nicola Sturgeon (the latest fish based leader of the SNP) and Hilary Benn (leftist son of Tony Benn. Leftist but went to the elitist comprehensive school that is Holland Park). Both of them espoused calm, sane views without any hyperbole. The one guy that is continuously shooting himself in both feet is Boris Johnson. He not only told lies about the cost of the EU but plastered the figures all over his bus. When called out on the lie he has admitted that while it is not the actual truth it is the best way of getting the true cost of the EU over to the British public.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yeah Boris it's good to admit you have to lie to the public to get your point across. Imbecile.</p>
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<p>The stay campaign have also been caught out in massive lies as well though.</p>
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<p>Basically the stay campaign lied on not just one claim in advertising.. but many.</p>
<p>If I was a voter in the Brexit, I would be seriously sick of the blatant scare tactics and lies.</p>
