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@Catogrande The more I think about things the more I'm starting to put a lot of the blame of how things are now on our media. They are very lazy, they lie, misrepresent, breakdown complex issues into a dangerous binary argument and throw fuel on fires just so they can report on the blaze.
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I'd throw it in the bin and start again. The EU is (and I would do the same if I was them) saying f-off, this is what we agreed, thats that.
Basically, it's not Brexit. For the transition period, we stay bound by all the customs unions, and we can't leave without the EU agreeing. And if this deadlock can't be broken, then Northern Ireland remains in the custom union, whilst Great Britain doesn't. Which breaks up the UK.
In my view, the UK went into the negotiations extremely fearful of a no-deal Brexit and agreed to all sorts of things which the public was never going to like. The DUP holding the ruling majority also gave them far too much say in the whole thing. The UK let the EU know they held all the cards, and then tried to negotiate with them. By voting out the no-no-deal Brexit, they gave them even more power.
Ultimately, what everybody needs to understand, is that there is no solution which can please more than about 40% of the UK, let alone everybody. I'm more bored of the whole thing than anything else, if I'm honest.
I know what I'd do if I was May. And fuck all people will agree with this. I'd go to the EU, stand in front of them (behind closed doors) and say if you agree to open discussions around free movement of people, I'll withdraw article 50 and we can start again. If the UK is able to gain some restriction on free movement of people, a re-vote would see Remain win conclusively and we could all move on. The EU know this too .. but refuse to budge. All my working life has taught me that when one of your biggest players (GB, Fra, Ger) wants to discuss something, you take it on board, otherwise they could do something which puts your whole proposal at risk. They didn't. Hence, Brexit.
Won't happen, and I stated previously, I benefit more by us staying in, so I ain't impartial.
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@Calf It doesn't matter what happens. May is just going to continue to try and get her deal through parliament. Again, and again, and again.
She's writing to the EU today for a short extension. So a short extension means one of two options. No deal or the turd-of-a-deal.
Seriously, FFS doesn't even begin to start covering where it's at.
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
I am wondering if anyone on here thinks a 2nd referendum would be a good idea. And if so, why?
As you may have sussed, I voted remain, but I really cannot see the benefit of a further referendum. No way it could again be on a simple leave/stay option. We've done that, so end of. A suggestion has been going around that it should be along the lines of go with X deal/stay. That to me is almost impossible. Firstly the fucking MPs cannot find an acceptable deal. Secondly any deal will be chock full of complexity and to expect the majority of the electorate to actually read the full details of the deal let alone understand all the ramifications would be fanciful. Dealing with that shit is what we vote the politicians in for.
So no, for me we just have to deal with what we've got ourselves in to. Trouble is, we're not dealing with it.
A second referendum forced on the citizens because their MPs fucked around would be a terrible blow on democracy.
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@antipodean said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
I am wondering if anyone on here thinks a 2nd referendum would be a good idea. And if so, why?
As you may have sussed, I voted remain, but I really cannot see the benefit of a further referendum. No way it could again be on a simple leave/stay option. We've done that, so end of. A suggestion has been going around that it should be along the lines of go with X deal/stay. That to me is almost impossible. Firstly the fucking MPs cannot find an acceptable deal. Secondly any deal will be chock full of complexity and to expect the majority of the electorate to actually read the full details of the deal let alone understand all the ramifications would be fanciful. Dealing with that shit is what we vote the politicians in for.
So no, for me we just have to deal with what we've got ourselves in to. Trouble is, we're not dealing with it.
A second referendum forced on the citizens because their MPs fucked around would be a terrible blow on democracy.
Something is going to be forced on citizens because the MP's fucked around. It's a matter of what.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
I'd throw it in the bin and start again. The EU is (and I would do the same if I was them) saying f-off, this is what we agreed, thats that.
From a strategic perspective or because that is how you would approach negotiation.
The EU's unwillingness at this point borders on bad faith IMO. With any bilateral trade agreement that might be struck it is pretty standard that in order to get the support of the crossbench/upper house there will need to be tweaks and amendments in order to get the thing passed.
While the EU may be contemptuous of UK's sovereignty it doesn't change the fact in order for this proposal to become a deal it needs to pass the Commons. They are the only ones who can agree to any deal and it's been clearly rejected and for obvious reasons many of which you list.
Simply put - it's a dick move for the EU to not see the situation and refuse to reopen negotiations when it is abundantly clear the deal is unpalatable for the other party. Likewise, if May threw the proposal up for a single vote with no lobbying and went back to the EU demanding to reopen I would say the same thing - but she has gone far beyond what is reasonable to try to sell this deal.
Politics aside it truly amazing how catastrophically bad May has handled this purely as a negotiator. If in any negotiation the other party isn't 100% clear that you will take no deal rather than a bad deal you are in for a bad time.
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@Rembrandt said in Brexit:
@Catogrande The more I think about things the more I'm starting to put a lot of the blame of how things are now on our media. They are very lazy, they lie, misrepresent, breakdown complex issues into a dangerous binary argument and throw fuel on fires just so they can report on the blaze.
This is a big part of the point made by many after the result which got shouted down as being 'remoaners'. The bullshit, lies and misinformation perpetuated by the media (on both sides) created an unreliable result especially if the 'closeness' is looked at as a margin of error.
If you then take into account the demographic fact that he only education level bracket to vote over 50% for leave was that of 'pre-sixth form college' it is no wonder that accusations of 'you didn't understand what you voted for and were easily swayed by the bullshit' were bandied about. -
@antipodean said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
I am wondering if anyone on here thinks a 2nd referendum would be a good idea. And if so, why?
As you may have sussed, I voted remain, but I really cannot see the benefit of a further referendum. No way it could again be on a simple leave/stay option. We've done that, so end of. A suggestion has been going around that it should be along the lines of go with X deal/stay. That to me is almost impossible. Firstly the fucking MPs cannot find an acceptable deal. Secondly any deal will be chock full of complexity and to expect the majority of the electorate to actually read the full details of the deal let alone understand all the ramifications would be fanciful. Dealing with that shit is what we vote the politicians in for.
So no, for me we just have to deal with what we've got ourselves in to. Trouble is, we're not dealing with it.
A second referendum forced on the citizens because their MPs fucked around would be a terrible blow on democracy.
It isn't a terrible blow to democracy if the result of a referendum has been tried to be implemented and the options are found to not be agreeable to the people.
You would not find a majority for either May's deal or 'no deal'.
That said a second referendum (even if to try and prove my statement above) would only add another level of complexity to the situation and would end up slanted toward 'no decision'.This mess all stems back to those that agreed to the referendum not asking themselves the question 'what happens if they vote yes?' and recognising the risk they were taking. If they hadn't been so self serving and arrogant they could have still held a vote but offered plans.
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@rotated both - they agreed it with the UK govt negotiators. So therefore they should expect UK to leave under these terms. Also, gotta remember that the more time they focus on this, the less time they don’t deal with other things.
Having said that, their response so far today on Mays letter is shit. May not have a response til the 28th? Too late for tomorrow’s agenda?
39 billions worth of divorce deal should see that agenda adjusted. It’s time to start playing some cards.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@rotated both - they agreed it with the UK govt negotiators. So therefore they should expect UK to leave under these terms.
But surely when you start the negotiations for the exit proposal the EU has to accept that the UK Govt Negotiators have no agency to actually enact anything. The only people who can "agree" to any exit proposal are the house. May can agree to put it before the parliament, speak in favour of it and lobby on its behalf - IMO she has exhausted whatever moral obligation she had to do that so now let's move onto renegotiation.
May is a car salesman taking an offer back to their manager who has promptly rejected it. Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable. I'm sorry you can't shake your head in the sand and say "we had a deal" when the person on the other end has no agency to actually make that deal.
I see this as no different if May in bilateral talks with Ireland was able to find a solution which was acceptable to both parties on all things Eire. They both may agree but ultimately the EU membership swings the hammer.
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Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable.
The EU President has made it clear in the last hour it's either May's deal and a short extension or the UK exits the EU with No Deal in 9 days time. Macron appears to be saying France will veto any longer extension of Article 50.
And what are our MP's discussing in an Emergency Debate in the House of Commons right now? They are attacking May for not yet holding indicative votes on what type of relationship the UK should have with the EU.
The Hard Brexit nutters and the "I don't care what the people voted for" Remainers - Fuckwits the lot of them.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable.
The EU President has made it clear in the last hour it's either May's deal and a short extension or the UK exits the EU with No Deal in 9 days time. Macron appears to be saying France will veto any longer extension of Article 50.
And what are our MP's discussing in an Emergency Debate in the House of Commons right now? They are attacking May for not yet holding indicative votes on what type of relationship the UK should have with the EU.
The Hard Brexit nutters and the "I don't care what the people voted for" Remainers - Fuckwits the lot of them.
Don't forget about option 3. Withdraw article 50.
I assure you, this is on the table as well.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Don't forget about option 3. Withdraw article 50.
I assure you, this is on the table as well.Simply pretend there was no referendum, that a 1m majority voted to leave the EU, that Parliament voted by a huge majority to invoke Article 50 and hope the public will understand and everything will be OK and hunky-dory?
Sounds like the sort of plan that only Vince Cable, Ken Clarke and other dotty Remainers would regard as realistic
Apologies for the sarcasm - the current situation seems to demand it
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@Victor-Meldrew it is ridiculous. Which means it’s par for the course.
I actually think Mays deal will get through.
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Get it thru and have a general election - not least to get rid of tossers like Umanna, Soubry & the weird ultra-brexiteer who votes against any deal as he "was in the army and trained not to lose"
And Labour's Brexit spokesman, Starmer, has just said on the current situation..."the introduction of "a new cliff edge is dangerous. It is clearly not what this House wants,"
Fuck me.
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This is an organisation which thought it a good strategic idea to rely on on Putin's Russia for it's energy needs.
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I am disappointed but not surprised that the UK media is so fucking gutless and partisan... towards Europe.
Regardless of wether you want to remain or leave I think most people agree.
1/ The MP's have made a mess of it
2/ The EU has treated the UK like an enemy and done nothing to 'help' get a smooth Brexit happen.These 2 things would rally the people of the UK, fuck the commons, and fuck the EU negotiators and leadership. At a time then the country is so disunited they need to rally some Brit Grit and get a bit of war time spirit. The UK just has no fight.
EU leadership is scornful of the UK and UK voters. EU media s the the same, yet the UK leadership and media is almost subservient and pathetic. They need to grow some balls and actually fight hard on behalf of the country. I think to much of the leadership class and media are remainers and are suffering some serious Stockholm syndrome. -
@Rembrandt said in Brexit:
Surely there is no way in hell that the EU will want a No Deal way too much money on the table.
They’re in a position where they can always get more money. Until of course they can’t. But that’s a long way off.
Brexit