NZ Politics



  • @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    @Winger said in NZ Politics:

    @Siam said in NZ Politics:

    @Godder that's a lot of certainty regarding possible exposure to " hate speech" definitely causing a suicide.

    I'd suggest the attempts and reasons for committing suicide are more complex than " remove hate speech, remove a significant number of suicides".

    For example Father's day suicides aren't a reaction to name calling.

    And straight white men commit suicide 4 times greater than women, yet all hate speech assessments are never in favour of straight white men. Ergo the hate speech laws would have to cater for abuse of straight white men. I haven't seen that version, but it must surely include the slur " white privilege ". And what do we do with the hate speech about Donald J Trump? That's all on public record.

    Can we please verify that hate speech causes suicide first? and can we also have a solid definition of hate speec, before we make more laws that are adjudicated solely on the victim's perception. (The Scottish version of what you propose has the perception of a witness enough to bring a conviction of hate speech!)

    Or could we look into child custody related suicides first? It looks pretty urgent, before we censor on a whim.

    Where's the evidence that being told what we can and can't say, will prevent suicides? Why so sure?

    Trump is in favor of free speech. And hes an example of taking the vile hate that's been thrown at him and responding like a warrior. Not a wimp. This is the way forward for the West regarding free speech rather than pandering to the overly soft and sensitive. If we go this latter route (as we seem to be) then free speech will be an idea only that no longer applies in the West,

    Ah, the good old interpretation that free speech means you can say what you like, when you like, to who ever you like.

    I have the freedom to own and drive a car, I think that’s great. But I have to do so within rules. The rules don’t remove my freedom they just set boundaries so I don’t t harm others.

    If we went the car example as we have with free speech. We would have everyone driving at 30kml max on motorways. As some sensitive soul who might or might not exist is (or might be) traumatized by fast driving. And a slow driving policy would save lives but destroy the economy but so what if we protect people

    My view with free speech is it should have certain levels.

    The police and criminal courts should almost never be involved. Unless someone is promoting a seriously and real criminal offense then let then stay out of heated discussions. One example of how bad the West is now is the ridiculous case bought against Andrew Bolt. The laws covering this case shouldn't exist.

    Another level would cover the big social media sites. This would give these sites more options to remove certain types of speech but would be governed to stop what's going on now.

    Civil (as opposed to criminal) actions would be another level etc



  • @Paekakboyz said in NZ Politics:

    Ok, ok, ok. Whose paying you lot off to chase rabbits down the gender identity rabbit hole while the Nats stumbled on day one in the house!!

    Goldsmith is Maori! Nicola Willis still thinks Bridges is running the ship, and Paula was laughing her ass off! Some amusing memes rolling around and things are just getting started.

    That Newshub summary story yesterday made my day like you wouldn't believe.

    Muller will try to hold his own but mark my words, Nikki Kaye's arrogance will be a stumbling block for this duo.



  • @Winger said in NZ Politics:

    Another level would cover the big social media sites. This would give these sites more options to remove certain types of speech but would be governed to stop what's going on now.

    What is going on now - genuine question. Don't do social media. Not a social animal at the best of times.



  • @Winger said in NZ Politics:

    @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    @Winger said in NZ Politics:

    @Siam said in NZ Politics:

    @Godder that's a lot of certainty regarding possible exposure to " hate speech" definitely causing a suicide.

    I'd suggest the attempts and reasons for committing suicide are more complex than " remove hate speech, remove a significant number of suicides".

    For example Father's day suicides aren't a reaction to name calling.

    And straight white men commit suicide 4 times greater than women, yet all hate speech assessments are never in favour of straight white men. Ergo the hate speech laws would have to cater for abuse of straight white men. I haven't seen that version, but it must surely include the slur " white privilege ". And what do we do with the hate speech about Donald J Trump? That's all on public record.

    Can we please verify that hate speech causes suicide first? and can we also have a solid definition of hate speec, before we make more laws that are adjudicated solely on the victim's perception. (The Scottish version of what you propose has the perception of a witness enough to bring a conviction of hate speech!)

    Or could we look into child custody related suicides first? It looks pretty urgent, before we censor on a whim.

    Where's the evidence that being told what we can and can't say, will prevent suicides? Why so sure?

    Trump is in favor of free speech. And hes an example of taking the vile hate that's been thrown at him and responding like a warrior. Not a wimp. This is the way forward for the West regarding free speech rather than pandering to the overly soft and sensitive. If we go this latter route (as we seem to be) then free speech will be an idea only that no longer applies in the West,

    Ah, the good old interpretation that free speech means you can say what you like, when you like, to who ever you like.

    I have the freedom to own and drive a car, I think that’s great. But I have to do so within rules. The rules don’t remove my freedom they just set boundaries so I don’t t harm others.

    If we went the car example as we have with free speech. We would have everyone driving at 30kml max on motorways. As some sensitive soul who might or might not exist is (or might be) traumatized by fast driving. And a slow driving policy would save lives but destroy the economy but so what if we protect people

    My view with free speech is it should have certain levels.

    The police and criminal courts should almost never be involved. Unless someone is promoting a seriously and real criminal offense then let then stay out of heated discussions. One example of how bad the West is now is the ridiculous case bought against Andrew Bolt. The laws covering this case shouldn't exist.

    Another level would cover the big social media sites. This would give these sites more options to remove certain types of speech but would be governed to stop what's going on now.

    Civil (as opposed to criminal) actions would be another level etc

    I think you are seeing something that isn't there. You are imaging some kind of thought police where every utterance is assessed and clamped down on. It simply doesn't exist. It is a trope of those trying to push a fear mongering viewpoint to influence others just like anti-vac and 5G

    You are free in NZ to stand on a street corner and say whatever you like as long as you don't create a public disturbance. You may get asked to move along to avoid disturbing the police but that's about it.



  • @Godder said in NZ Politics:

    @Siam said in NZ Politics:

    @Godder that's a lot of certainty regarding possible exposure to " hate speech" definitely causing a suicide.

    I'd suggest the attempts and reasons for committing suicide are more complex than " remove hate speech, remove a significant number of suicides".

    For example Father's day suicides aren't a reaction to name calling.

    And straight white men commit suicide 4 times greater than women, yet all hate speech assessments are never in favour of straight white men. Ergo the hate speech laws would have to cater for abuse of straight white men. I haven't seen that version, but it must surely include the slur " white privilege ". And what do we do with the hate speech about Donald J Trump? That's all on public record.

    Can we please verify that hate speech causes suicide first? and can we also have a solid definition of hate speec, before we make more laws that are adjudicated solely on the victim's perception. (The Scottish version of what you propose has the perception of a witness enough to bring a conviction of hate speech!)

    Or could we look into child custody related suicides first? It looks pretty urgent, before we censor on a whim.

    Where's the evidence that being told what we can and can't say, will prevent suicides? Why so sure?

    Telling people to commit suicide has been illegal in NZ since the 1800s (counselled, procured or incited) as long as they committed or attempted suicide. The recent addition is that it's now illegal to tell them to commit suicide regardless of whether they commit or attempt suicide.

    Likewise racial disharmony, racial harassment and sexual harassment is in the Human Rights Act as unlawful and has been since enactment in 1993. The recent addition there is to add digital media to radio and television.

    Guess it's moot - already happened decades ago, the world didn't end, and we carry on.

    Are hate speech law revisions or planned legislation included in the Labour party wishlist you spoke of?

    Is this question acceptable for Cindy "what provisions for hate speech will the government recommend in it's next term, if elected?"

    This is information every voter is entitled to know



  • It is early days but I am getting a vibe that Muller and the Nats are taking a slant of trying to return the country to where it was pre-covid, while Labour may be looking to embrace the opportunity to change.
    What Labour decide to change will be the key to selling their vision of course.

    Personally I think we have found ourselves in a situation where some very good changes can take place and many businesses have already been able to work with that. That change itself will drive jobs. Will be interesting to see where things go.



  • @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    It is early days but I am getting a vibe that Muller and the Nats are taking a slant of trying to return the country to where it was pre-covid, while Labour may be looking to embrace the opportunity to change.
    What Labour decide to change will be the key to selling their vision of course.

    Personally I think we have found ourselves in a situation where some very good changes can take place and many businesses have already been able to work with that. That change itself will drive jobs. Will be interesting to see where things go.

    Never waste a good disaster, right?



  • @Kirwan There is at least one Gov Department that is breathing a huge sigh of relief at the moment. They were on track to blow their budget (by sh*tloads) and are now pretty confident that it will be hidden behind Covid 19. Will be interesting to see if it ever hits the media but it's looking pretty unlikely now.



  • @Kirwan said in NZ Politics:

    @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    It is early days but I am getting a vibe that Muller and the Nats are taking a slant of trying to return the country to where it was pre-covid, while Labour may be looking to embrace the opportunity to change.
    What Labour decide to change will be the key to selling their vision of course.

    Personally I think we have found ourselves in a situation where some very good changes can take place and many businesses have already been able to work with that. That change itself will drive jobs. Will be interesting to see where things go.

    Never waste a good disaster, right?

    Or a war.
    These things are painful when they happen but are often the catalyst for good change as they provide opportunities that are too difficult when things are trucking along.



  • @Toddy said in NZ Politics:

    @Kirwan There is at least one Gov Department that is breathing a huge sigh of relief at the moment. They were on track to blow their budget (by sh*tloads) and are now pretty confident that it will be hidden behind Covid 19. Will be interesting to see if it ever hits the media but it's looking pretty unlikely now.

    I’m surprised that more hasn’t been made of Work and Income telling people that they have to use up their redundancy money before being eligible for help. They pushed it off as confusion among staff in training but even thier own website had to be fixed to remove the reference to it.
    How many people over how long have been flicked off with that lie?

    The dept you mention won’t be able to hide it as long as some journo does their analysis properly and doesn’t just wait for a tweet to reprint.



  • @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    Quite simply because it isn't a four year old asking the question, it is most likely someone setting up a strawman.

    Is it really such a simple question? Maybe your belief of a simple answer is the only reason you think the question is simple?

    Genuinely lost here. Couldn't the exact same be said about the abortion question?

    Why is looking for a yes/no answer on an issue as complicated as abortion valid, but an open-ended question on a pretty fundamental issue is somewhat a strawman?



  • @rotated said in NZ Politics:

    @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    Quite simply because it isn't a four year old asking the question, it is most likely someone setting up a strawman.

    Is it really such a simple question? Maybe your belief of a simple answer is the only reason you think the question is simple?

    Genuinely lost here. Couldn't the exact same be said about the abortion question?

    Why is looking for a yes/no answer on an issue as complicated as abortion valid, ....

    I don’t think it is



  • @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    I don’t think it is

    That was how it was put to Muller.

    As for strawmen the abortion discussion generally devolves immediately into... rape/incest/mother's life in danger.



  • @rotated said in NZ Politics:

    @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    I don’t think it is

    That was how it was put to Muller.

    As for strawmen the abortion discussion generally devolves immediately into... rape/incest/mother's life in danger.

    usually followed by shouting



  • @rotated said in NZ Politics:

    @Crucial said in NZ Politics:

    I don’t think it is

    That was how it was put to Muller.

    As for strawmen the abortion discussion generally devolves immediately into... rape/incest/mother's life in danger.

    I don't disagree with you. That is the reason why the earlier discussion was around how he should have avoided providing a yes/no answer because it doesn't give him room to provide explanation. Doubly bad when he is not only answering on a personal basis but as leader.



  • I guess if there is any CV out there in the community right now, we are gonna find out soon enough...



  • @taniwharugby as a New Zealander, that's embarrassing.
    No doubt a vociferous reaction coming to all those not social distancing. If that isn't acted on by the government then one wonders what the authoritarian approach to the COVID situation was all about.
    What's it to be Cindy, go hard or capitulate to social warriors in an irrelevant protest?



  • Are the same people telling everyone to stay indoors those now congregating to show support for people they've never met across the Pacific Ocean?

    Is next weekend's march for Hong Kong or the Uighurs?



  • Man this article freaked me out. The rabid comparisons with the US. God knows the relevance of religion in the " Muslim lives matter" message.

    I know it's media but are you guys in NZ hearing many conversations as perverted as this article claims?

    Is NZ demonstrably racist against people of colour now? I ain't been back for a while and if this is the real mood of the nation it might be a bit longer.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300025024/black-lives-matter-marches-thousands-of-kiwis-peacefully-protest-against-racism?cid=app-android



  • @Siam

    So much for Covid 19 restrictions

    And if this is all OK why not crowds at rugby matches etc



  • @Winger more the insistence of wide spread racism throughout NZ



  • If these dickheads marching cause another outbreak of Covid I am going to be extremely pissed off



  • @Siam said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @taniwharugby as a New Zealander, that's embarrassing.
    No doubt a vociferous reaction coming to all those not social distancing. If that isn't acted on by the government then one wonders what the authoritarian approach to the COVID situation was all about.
    What's it to be Cindy, go hard or capitulate to social warriors in an irrelevant protest?

    @Siam said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @taniwharugby as a New Zealander, that's embarrassing.
    No doubt a vociferous reaction coming to all those not social distancing. If that isn't acted on by the government then one wonders what the authoritarian approach to the COVID situation was all about.
    What's it to be Cindy, go hard or capitulate to social warriors in an irrelevant protest?

    She dodged a series of specific questions on that on Hosking’s show about half an hour ago. Honest and transparent.



  • I don’t understand why protests like that, with no social distancing, were allowed to continue. I’d be pissed if my business was shut down because crowds weren’t allowed but this was allowed.



  • @taniwharugby Yeah Black Lives Matter - seemingly more than those of your fellow Kiwi's you fucking gobshites.



  • @Siam TBF I dont think this is a new 'accusation' however some of the racism is usually glossed over (Hone Harawira is a racist fukcer, I have witnessed a Maori lady racially abusing an Indian lady...)



  • 641386B8-E175-4C1C-8490-C07B7C6201C0.jpeg

    A friend of mine who is mixed race shared this on FB. Quite amusing watching her point out this fact to her friends and shooting them down.



  • Bit of a rock and a hard place situation though. How do you go about breaking up a protest like that, considering there would be a (not insignificant) minority who might be spoiling for a fight with a copper?

    So on the one hand you risk an outbreak, but on the other you risk a potentially violent, messy clash between police and protesters, which could trigger further protests and backlash in other places.



  • @MN5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    641386B8-E175-4C1C-8490-C07B7C6201C0.jpeg

    A friend of mine who is mixed race shared this on FB. Quite amusing watching her point out this fact to her friends and shooting them down.

    Dumb argument that misses the point of the saying entirely.

    BLM means 'Black lives matter AS ALL LIVES do' not ONLY.

    It isn't a race card, it is a slogan to draw attention to a problem.



  • @Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @MN5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    641386B8-E175-4C1C-8490-C07B7C6201C0.jpeg

    A friend of mine who is mixed race shared this on FB. Quite amusing watching her point out this fact to her friends and shooting them down.

    Dumb argument that misses the point of the saying entirely.

    BLM means 'Black lives matter AS ALL LIVES do' not ONLY.

    It isn't a race card, it is a slogan to draw attention to a problem.

    You can look at it that way but she pointed out a counter argument. That's all.

    She said something along the lines of slogans like this will create division by their very wording.



  • @barbarian said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    Bit of a rock and a hard place situation though. How do you go about breaking up a protest like that, considering there would be a (not insignificant) minority who might be spoiling for a fight with a copper?

    So on the one hand you risk an outbreak, but on the other you risk a potentially violent, messy clash between police and protesters, which could trigger further protests and backlash in other places.

    Give the unwashed a bath at the same time:
    alt text





  • @taniwharugby I'm happy for them to make an exception for the financial benefit of the country. As long as they make sure to quarantine them correctly. Money made from producing the movie would pale in comparison to another lockdown



  • @canefan Yes, but weren't these the same clowns getting stuck into National for special treatment for Jackson?



  • @Kirwan I was just thinking about that...giving movie companies special treatment and all.

    I dont have an issue, as above, as long as they are in isolation, all good.

    That said, been alot of money spent already on the project already, would be surprised if they spat the dummy over a delay of a few more weeks.



  • @Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @canefan Yes, but weren't these the same clowns getting stuck into National for special treatment for Jackson?

    Screenshot_20200602-154024_Chrome.jpg



  • @Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @canefan Yes, but weren't these the same clowns getting stuck into National for special treatment for Jackson?

    Yes but this is different because... ummm..



  • @Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @MN5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    641386B8-E175-4C1C-8490-C07B7C6201C0.jpeg

    A friend of mine who is mixed race shared this on FB. Quite amusing watching her point out this fact to her friends and shooting them down.

    Dumb argument that misses the point of the saying entirely.

    BLM means 'Black lives matter AS ALL LIVES do' not ONLY.

    It isn't a race card, it is a slogan to draw attention to a problem.

    It's entirely a race card. The only determining factor is race. 30% of the message denotes race. The race card would have black lives matter emblazoned on it. It purposely alienates other races.

    Inclusivity:
    Poor lives matter
    Elderly lives matter
    Unemployed lives matter
    Fatherless lives matter
    Victims of crime lives matter
    Drug addicts lives matter



  • @Siam said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @Crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @MN5 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    641386B8-E175-4C1C-8490-C07B7C6201C0.jpeg

    A friend of mine who is mixed race shared this on FB. Quite amusing watching her point out this fact to her friends and shooting them down.

    Dumb argument that misses the point of the saying entirely.

    BLM means 'Black lives matter AS ALL LIVES do' not ONLY.

    It isn't a race card, it is a slogan to draw attention to a problem.

    It's entirely a race card. The only determining factor is race. 30% of the message denotes race. The race card would have black lives matter emblazoned on it. It purposely alienates other races.

    Inclusivity:
    Poor lives matter
    Elderly lives matter
    Unemployed lives matter
    Fatherless lives matter
    Victims of crime lives matter
    Drug addicts lives matter

    Jew lives matter?

    Although Linda Sarsour might not be onboard with that one.



  • @Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:

    @canefan Yes, but weren't these the same clowns getting stuck into National for special treatment for Jackson?

    posts like this always surprise me, especially from smart blokes. Do you expect anything different? Have you seen anything, from either party (or for that matter any two parties in any western democracy) that would suggest any sort of consistency? Or any self awareness?

    Politicians of all stripes will say and do what ever is politically advantageous at the time. To expect anything else is folly.


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