Orlando shooting + terrorism thread
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="591410" data-time="1466839836"><p>I think we all agree that this mongtard was:-<br>
<br>- Likely a gay<br>
- Definitely a muslim.<br>
- Definitely a nut job.<br>
- Had parental and religious issues.<br>
- Likely (and unilaterally) aligned himself with fanatical Islamic factions to justify his actions.<br>
- Found it far too easy to get his hands on an assault rifle.<br>
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The only thing we seem to disagree on is which is the more defining issue. I don't see this last bit as something that many of us are likely to change our minds on.<br>
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Edit: There is only one of those 6 points that if taken away by itself would have stopped the killing. Clue. it's number 6.</p></blockquote>Damn I thought it had to be Islam
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<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="591410" data-time="1466839836"><p>I think we all agree that this mongtard was:-<br><br>
- Likely a gay<br>
- Definitely a muslim.<br>
- Definitely a nut job.<br>
- Had parental and religious issues.<br>
- Likely (and unilaterally) aligned himself with fanatical Islamic factions to justify his actions.<br>
- Found it far too easy to get his hands on an assault rifle.<br><br>
The only thing we seem to disagree on is which is the more defining issue. I don't see this last bit as something that many of us are likely to change our minds on.<br><br>
Edit: There is only one of those 6 points that if taken away by itself would have stopped the killing. Clue. it's number 6.</p></blockquote>
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Good post, but on your last point, you can make a very strong argument that if you take Islam out of the equation then the killing is stopped. You can also argue that if the gun he aquired was illegal then he would find another means of carrying out the killing (like others have in the past... bombs etc).<br><br>
The problem with Islam (and religion in general) is you can't make laws against it. Guns you can, so that is the thing people will jump on. But I honestly don't think better gun laws will stop nutters like this - it will help with other shootings that are either someone with the red mist and a gun on hand, or a child getting hold of a gun. But if someone is suicidal and wants to carry out a mass murder then there is not a lot you can do to stop them - it's a scary prospect.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="591410" data-time="1466839836">
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<p>I think we all agree that this mongtard was:-</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. Likely a gay</p>
<p>2. Definitely a muslim.</p>
<p>3. Definitely a nut job.</p>
<p>4. Had parental and religious issues.</p>
<p>5. Likely (and unilaterally) aligned himself with fanatical Islamic factions to justify his actions.</p>
<p>6. Found it far too easy to get his hands on an assault rifle.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The only thing we seem to disagree on is which is the more defining issue. I don't see this last bit as something that many of us are likely to change our minds on.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Edit: There is only one of those 6 points that if taken away by itself would have stopped the killing. Clue. it's number 6.</p>
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<p>His wife taking him to gun shows, buying him ammunition and dropping him off at the club are bloody hard to fathom, if all thats true I hope she's due for a long stretch in prison.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="591651" data-time="1466851510">
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<p>
Good post, but on your last point, you can make a very strong argument that if you take Islam out of the equation then the killing is stopped. You can also argue that if the gun he aquired was illegal then he would find another means of carrying out the killing (like others have in the past... bombs etc).<strong> Indeed, you are correct, but in this particular instance. No gun = no killings. Yeah, for sure he may have then gone and made a bomb or found another way of getting a gun, but, in this instance, no gun means no deaths.</strong><br><br>
The problem with Islam (and religion in general) is you can't make laws against it. Guns you can, so that is the thing people will jump on. But I honestly don't think better gun laws will stop nutters like this - it will help with other shootings that are either someone with the red mist and a gun on hand, or a child getting hold of a gun. But if someone is suicidal and wants to carry out a mass murder then there is not a lot you can do to stop them - it's a scary prospect. <strong>I couldn't agree more. Sadly I do not see a way out of this for the US. The gun laws are just not going to meaningfully change and </strong><b>religion is a fucked up doctrine that will continue to cause strife all over the world.</b></p>
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<p>No Islam means no deaths even more definitively.</p>
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<p>Genetics would suggest otherwise.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="591928" data-time="1466899910">
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<p>Genetics would suggest otherwise.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>what?</p> -
<p>I suspect that deaths will continue to occur if there was no Islam. We are all genetically destined to die.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="592025" data-time="1466928921"><p>I suspect that deaths will continue to occur if there was no Islam. We are all genetically destined to die.</p></blockquote>I thought you meant that people are people and we're really good at killing each other regardless of the excuse
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<p>Either works :yes:</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="592026" data-time="1466929026">
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<p>I thought you meant that people are people and we're really good at killing each other regardless of the excuse</p>
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<p>Yep, 100% its that humans REALLY like killing each other. Throughout all of human history right up to modern times, you strip away serious constraints, we kill each other with staggering enthusiasm. Look at every failed state in the last 30 years (ie countries where the rule of law is removed) and everyone kills & rapes like there's no tomorrow. You dont even have to take the laws away for long, it doesn't have to be Rwanda or Kosovo, look at the tiny window that was huricane Katrina.</p>
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<p>What religion does, and has always done, is give us an excuse. </p> -
Yup, so it'd be great to take away that excuse and start working on a society where we aren't obsessd with killing each other. I know a lot of people chuck it in the "too hard, people will always kill each other" basket but I would rather have a more positive outlook, and believe the "good" people in society can end up as the majority, not the minority.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="592335" data-time="1467017539">
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<p>Yup, so it'd be great to take away that excuse and start working on a society where we aren't obsessd with killing each other. I know a lot of people chuck it in the "too hard, people will always kill each other" basket but I would rather have a more positive outlook, and believe the "good" people in society can end up as the majority, not the minority. :)</p>
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<p>You need to take away 3 things.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The means</p>
<p>The excuse</p>
<p>The core of basic human nature</p>
<p> </p>
<p>First of all I'd be taking away the means. Thats pretty easy. Its been done in most countries. As to how to take away the other 2, education and higher standards of living tend to work for religion. In particular seperating education from religion. The US is moving the opposite direction on that one.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for changing basic human nature, same way you change any species. You selectively cull. You take the top 10% of the most agresive in your breeding population & kill or sterilise them. Repeat for 200 generations, congrats, you have changed a wild fox into a Jack Russell.</p>
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<p>That ones pretty easy too really - tho' it will take 1000 years or so and involve some social adjustment re buying into it.</p> -
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/aziz-ansari-why-trump-makes-me-scared-for-my-family.html?_r=0'>http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/aziz-ansari-why-trump-makes-me-scared-for-my-family.html?_r=0</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:12pt;">Aziz Ansari: Why Trump Makes Me Scared for My Family</span></strong></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">By AZIZ ANSARIJUNE 24, 2016 </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">“DON’T go anywhere near a mosque,†I told my mother. “Do all your prayer at home. O.K.?â€</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">“We’re not going,†she replied.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">I am the son of Muslim immigrants. As I sent that text, in the aftermath of the horrible attack in Orlando, Fla., I realized how awful it was to tell an American citizen to be careful about how she worshiped.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">Being Muslim American already carries a decent amount of baggage. In our culture, when people think “Muslim,†the picture in their heads is not usually of the Nobel Peace Prize winner Malala Yousafzai, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or the kid who left the boy band One Direction. It’s of a scary terrorist character from “Homeland†or some monster from the news.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">Today, with the presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and others like him spewing hate speech, prejudice is reaching new levels. It’s visceral, and scary, and it affects how people live, work and pray. It makes me afraid for my family. It also makes no sense.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">There are approximately 3.3 million Muslim Americans. After the attack in Orlando, The Times reported that the F.B.I. is investigating 1,000 potential “homegrown violent extremists,†a majority of whom are most likely connected in some way to the Islamic State. If everyone on that list is Muslim American, that is 0.03 percent of the Muslim American population. If you round that number, it is 0 percent. The overwhelming number of Muslim Americans have as much in common with that monster in Orlando as any white person has with any of the white terrorists who shoot up movie theaters or schools or abortion clinics.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">I asked a young friend of mine, a woman in her 20s of Muslim heritage, how she had been feeling after the attack. “I just feel really bad, like people think I have more in common with that idiot psychopath than I do the innocent people being killed,†she said. “I’m really sick of having to explain that I’m not a terrorist every time the shooter is brown.â€</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">I myself am not a religious person, but after these attacks, anyone that even looks like they might be Muslim understands the feelings my friend described. There is a strange feeling that you must almost prove yourself worthy of feeling sad and scared like everyone else.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">I understand that as far as these problems go, I have it better than most because of my recognizability as an actor. When someone on the street gives me a strange look, it’s usually because they want to take a selfie with me, not that they think I’m a terrorist.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">But I remember how those encounters can feel. A few months after the attacks of Sept. 11, I remember walking home from class near N.Y.U., where I was a student. I was crossing the street and a man swore at me from his car window and yelled: “Terrorist!†To be fair, I may have been too quick to cross the street as the light changed, but I’m not sure that warranted being compared to the perpetrators of one of the most awful incidents in human history.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">The vitriolic and hate-filled rhetoric coming from Mr. Trump isn’t so far off from cursing at strangers from a car window. He has said that people in the American Muslim community “know who the bad ones are,†implying that millions of innocent people are somehow complicit in awful attacks. Not only is this wrongheaded; but it also does nothing to address the real problems posed by terrorist attacks. By Mr. Trump’s logic, after the huge financial crisis of 2007-08, the best way to protect the American economy would have been to ban white males.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">According to reporting by Mother Jones, since 9/11, there have been 49 mass shootings in this country, and more than half of those were perpetrated by white males. I doubt we’ll hear Mr. Trump make a speech asking his fellow white males to tell authorities “who the bad ones are,†or call for restricting white males’ freedoms.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">One way to decrease the risk of terrorism is clear: Keep military-grade weaponry out of the hands of mentally unstable people, those with a history of violence, and those on F.B.I. watch lists. But, despite sit-ins and filibusters, our lawmakers are failing us on this front and choose instead to side with the National Rifle Association. Suspected terrorists can buy assault rifles, but we’re still carrying tiny bottles of shampoo to the airport. If we’re going to use the “they’ll just find another way†argument, let’s use that to let us keep our shoes on.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">Every weekday, get thought-provoking commentary from Op-Ed columnists, The Times editorial board and contributing writers from around the world.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">Xenophobic rhetoric was central to Mr. Trump’s campaign long before the attack in Orlando. This is a guy who kicked off his presidential run by calling Mexicans “rapists†who were “bringing drugs†to this country. Numerous times, he has said that Muslims in New Jersey were cheering in the streets on Sept. 11, 2001. This has been continually disproved, but he stands by it. I don’t know what every Muslim American was doing that day, but I can tell you what my family was doing. I was studying at N.Y.U., and I lived near the World Trade Center. When the second plane hit, I was on the phone with my mother, who called to tell me to leave my dorm building.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">The haunting sound of the second plane hitting the towers is forever ingrained in my head. My building was close enough that it shook upon impact. I was scared for my life as my fellow students and I trekked the panicked streets of Manhattan. My family, unable to reach me on my cellphone, was terrified about my safety as they watched the towers collapse. There was absolutely no cheering. Only sadness, horror and fear.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;">Mr. Trump, in response to the attack in Orlando, began a tweet with these words: “Appreciate the congrats.†It appears that day he was the one who was celebrating after an attack.</span></p> -
<p>Oh yeah.. poor Muslims.. my heart bleeds.</p>
<p>Must be horrible to have all those nasty words said about your religion. Much better to ahve bullets and bombs thrown at you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam just says to murder gays. How dare people criticise that?? Wont someone think of the poor people who follow such a hateful religion?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If all else fails.. just blame Trump.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="592338" data-time="1467018314"><p>You need to take away 3 things.<br>
<br>
The means<br>
The excuse<br>
The core of basic human nature<br>
<br>
First of all I'd be taking away the means. Thats pretty easy. Its been done in most countries. As to how to take away the other 2, education and higher standards of living tend to work for religion. In particular seperating education from religion. The US is moving the opposite direction on that one.<br>
<br>
As for changing basic human nature, same way you change any species. You selectively cull. You take the top 10% of the most agresive in your breeding population & kill or sterilise them. Repeat for 200 generations, congrats, you have changed a wild fox into a Jack Russell.<br>
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That ones pretty easy too really - tho' it will take 1000 years or so and involve some social adjustment re buying into it.</p></blockquote>1000 years? When you said pretty easy I foolishly thought that meant "in my lifetime"! -
<p><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl-rEZVVYAQXd96.jpg" alt="Cl-rEZVVYAQXd96.jpg"></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>From the NYC march over the Orlando massacre.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yeah blame the Republicans.. not the Islamic Democrat shooter. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would love to know what 'logic' these people were following in connecting the Republican party with a disturbed Muslim massacring Homosexuals that his religion wants dead..</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Oh yeah.... and Hilary Clinton marched with them as well... stay classy Hilary.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can only imagine the media reaction if Trump marched with a bunch of rednecks with a banner.. "Islam hate Kills!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/hillary-clinton-new-york-pride-parade-orlando'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/hillary-clinton-new-york-pride-parade-orlando</a></p> -
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-neo-nazi-stabbed-20160626-snap-htmlstory.html'>http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-neo-nazi-stabbed-20160626-snap-htmlstory.html</a></p>
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<p>Trumps (and your) parade was happening in LA</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And surely the opposite slogan would be "Democrat hate kills"?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Unless you are not sure re the difference being political parties & religions... or the Dems & ISIS (you & Donald both there)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="592438" data-time="1467059909">
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<p>Oh yeah.. poor Muslims.. my heart bleeds.</p>
<p>Must be horrible to have all those nasty words said about your religion. Much better to ahve bullets and bombs thrown at you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam just says to murder gays. How dare people criticise that?? Wont someone think of the poor people who follow such a hateful religion?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If all else fails.. just blame Trump.</p>
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<p>you are behaving in exactly the way that makes people feel sorry for the majority of the muslim population. because, you know, despite all of them having done nothing wrong themselves and living peaceful lives, they get lumped in with the psychos by people like you.</p>
<p>it's just bigotry, and it's disgusting.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="592860" data-time="1467202585">
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<p>you are behaving in exactly the way that makes people feel sorry for the majority of the muslim population. because, you know, despite all of them having done nothing wrong themselves and living peaceful lives, they get lumped in with the psychos by people like you.</p>
<p>it's just bigotry, and it's disgusting.</p>
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<p>yeah yeah... attacking a religion is bigotry.Because you know.. people follow it... cool story. It is the regressive lefts knee jerk response to absolutely any criticism of Islam to accuse people of bigotry and or Islamophobia. They make those terms just lose meaning.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The religion Muslims follow is hateful, it preaches murder, it preaches discrimination, repression and slavery. I reserve my disdain for the ideology of Islam. I know there are lots of apologists out there who cannot handle the religion being criticised, I find that support disgusting, I find any ideology that preaches hate and murder and is considered beyond questioning and those that appease it disgusting.</p>
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<p>But of course feel free to fall, back on the straw man argument of "But not all Muslims kill and murder!" Just because nobody has said they do.. dont let that stop you mounting your high horse and screeching BIGOTRY!!!</p>