Springboks V All Blacks



  • @hooroo said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @nevorian said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    One things for sure - it is no 'dead rubber' with the Freedom cup up for grabs and not wanting to lose twice to the boks this season.

    While I never want to lose to South Africa, is this the time, now we have TRC put away, that we look towards next year's world cup and try maybe one or two minor changes in the cauldron that is SA rugby? (Mounga/DMac at first 5, Karl starting and Ardie on the blind?)

    If I was going to play around with the team, I'd consider starting BB (10) and Dmac (15) with BFA (14) and RM coming of the bench - where they could either pull BB, Dmac, Rieko, or BFA for the last 25. I'd be intrested to see wheher BB and Dmac can get things going earlier in a test, or whether they need tired opposition. I suspect they won't, so:

    Mr. T, Taylor, Franks, Barrett, Whitelock, Frizell, Cane, Read, Smith, Barrett, Ioane, SBW, Crotty, Wise/BFA, BFA/Barrett

    Harris, Perry, Ofa, Pat T, Savea, TJP, Dmac, ALB

    Btw, I'd pick:

    Mr. T, Taylor, Franks, Barrett, Whitelock, Frizell, Cane, Read, Smith, Barrett, Ioane, SBW, Goodhue, BFA, Dmac

    Coltman, Perry, Ofa, Pat T, Savea, TJP, Mo'unga, ALB

    Edit: Forgot Harris in the will be selected team



  • @gt12 I think you will be spot on - with Naholo and BFA playing and Jordie not.



  • @chris-b you think that Goodhue and JB are just on tour just as squaddies to see if this AB life is for them? 😉

    If SBW hadn't fallen ill a couple of weeks back, I suspect Goodhue starts in the game yesterday, and similarly if Jordie hadn't been average...



  • @taniwharugby I think they'll play what they think is their top team and I think that is Williams/Crotty - with ALB on the bench.

    I don't necessarily agree - I rate Goodhue very highly and would like to see him getting as much AB game time as possible, but I can see why they are loyal to experience.

    There's also a tendency for people to slip in the public's rankings when they're out of sight, but then they come back and you remember what they can do.



  • @chris-b I think SBW held our attack back on Saturday, a couple of trademark offloads and obligatory YC, but other than that I think he had a quiet game. Compare and cotrast that with Goodhue and or ALB and both are busier and more dynamic/energetic but also provide directiom and incision\ to our attack. Also thought SBW had slowed up quite a bt - spotted a couple of gaps that a couple of years ago he would have put the afterburners on and sliced through easily, insyead I felt he was laboured and struggled for pace.



  • @shadowtrooper Yeah - I've written before that I think he's lost a yard of pace since his injury in Rio.

    On the other hand, there was a game earlier this year (presumably the France test?) where SBW was rolling in plaudits. And to be fair, he hasn't played for weeks, so it's not surprising if he's a bit off the pace.



  • Based on Saturday's game, I'd tell Dmac to stay at home, rest up and spend a bit more time with his family, instead of making the extra travel miles. It's insane how much he has to travel in such a short time. To Argentina and back in less than a week, and then to SA. Triple jet lag. Mo'unga needs more game time anyway and showed last Saturday that he can be the impact player from the bench, too.



  • This is a must-win for the ABs after losing to SA in Wellington. We do not want to be giving the Boks more confidence leading into the opening RWC pool game next year.

    Hansen and co will pick the strongest team available, which in their eyes is a SBW-Crotty midfield and the back three that played vs Arg. JB might be an option at fullback if they expect SA to kick a lot in Pretoria.



  • @bovidae

    They expected Boks to kick a lot in Wellington and that didn't happen. I'd say Naholo and Rieko could be rather dangerous on a fast dry track.



  • @kiwimurph said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @bovidae

    They expected Boks to kick a lot in Wellington and that didn't happen. I'd say Naholo and Rieko could be rather dangerous on a fast dry track.

    Agreed. You know I am in the BFA at fullback camp.



  • @stargazer I agree with you. Mounga could do with the experience. I'd even start him, with his Crusaders colleagues Crotty at second-five and Goodhue at centre. Same back three as last week, with a Hurricanes backs bench of Perinara, B Barrett and J Barrett.



  • @taniwharugby yeah I reckon it'll be what we typically see on the rebound from a loss - focus and attack everything that was a strength for the opposition in the previous game and systematically erode their confidence before blowing out in the last ten.



  • Infidel will be very surprised if Goodhue doesn't start in the 13 jumper.



  • @infidel said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    Infidel will be very surprised if Goodhue doesn't start in the 13 jumper.

    I'm glad that @infidel thinks that @infidel thinks that way.

    Will be interesting to see what they do though, won't it?

    While Crotty and SBW have been out the new combos have worked well and while SBW showed out reasonably in the test and showed that he looks to just need a little playing time, Crotty was underwhelming compared to his stand in.
    I suspect they will go with SBW/Crotty again before casting the die and making a change that could get set in stone.



  • Would like to see this 23 vs boks.

    • BFA
      Naholo
      Goodhue
      SBW
      Reiko
      BB
      AS
      Read
      Cane
      Frizzel
      Sam W
      SB
      Owen
      Codie (needs a rest but we need him to deliver against boks)
      Mr T


  • @mg Harris, Ofa. Perry, Pat T, Ardie, TJ, Richie, ALB



  • @mg said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @mg Harris, Ofa. Perry, Pat T, Ardie, TJ, Richie, ALB

    Only nitpicking from @booboo is I'd prefer DMac on the bench, but agree with @srargazer that the travel may be an issue.



  • @booboo Agree, I would've picked him but for the travelling, we missed him against the argies though.



  • With regard to Codie, they will surely be looking toward the EOYT and what they know about Coles. Taylor is looking jaded (as he should).
    Maybe they will ask Harris to step up with a really good game? We know his scrummaging is good and he is reasonable around the field. His throwing can be off but a tired Taylor is no better.



  • @crucial Agree



  • @mrdenmore said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @stargazer I agree with you. Mounga could do with the experience. I'd even start him, with his Crusaders colleagues Crotty at second-five and Goodhue at centre.

    Just add to those three

    Perry, Taylor, Franks, Whitelock, S. Barrett, Read....



  • @act-crusader said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @mrdenmore said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @stargazer I agree with you. Mounga could do with the experience. I'd even start him, with his Crusaders colleagues Crotty at second-five and Goodhue at centre.

    Just add to those three

    Perry, Taylor, Franks, Whitelock, S. Barrett, Read....

    alt text



  • I'd pick:

    Karl T, Taylor, Franks, S Barrett, Whitelock, Frizell, Cane, Read, A Smith, B Barrett, R Ioane, SBW, Goodhue, Naholo, B Smith.

    Bench: Perry, Harris, Ofa T, Patrick T, A Savea, TJP, Mo'unga, ALB



  • @mg said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @mg Harris, Ofa. Perry, Pat T, Ardie, TJ, Richie, ALB

    Snap!



  • Has there been anything official about BBBR?
    Whilst I hope he doesn't need surgery it is close to the go/no go point for next year's Super season. Better IMO to miss EOYT than get crocked and need surgery anyway, which will rule him out till May.



  • @pakman said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    Has there been anything official about BBBR?
    Whilst I hope he doesn't need surgery it is close to the go/no go point for next year's Super season. Better IMO to miss EOYT than get crocked and need surgery anyway, which will rule him out till May.

    what's awesome is we have been playing well without him. He's an incredible player, but the forwrad pack has hardly missed a beat without him there. Well, in the bits he does anyway 🙂



  • @nzzp we lost to SA.

    With a very distinct lack of cohesion, accuracy, effectiveness and mongrel.



  • @bones I think lack of game sense probably had more impact on that game.



  • @taniwharugby said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @bones I think lack of game sense probably had more impact on that game.

    No one would have dared to be senseless if Brodie was there.



  • @bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @nzzp we lost to SA.

    With a very distinct lack of cohesion, accuracy, effectiveness and mongrel.

    I'm not so convinced it was as big a disaster as people say. We scored 6 tries, and should have scored a couple more. We threw them 14 points from muppet decisions, missed 6/8 kicks, and still only lost by two. All that said, we still had a chance to win in teh last minute where anything but a tip on the pass probably leads to a try.

    Particularly, I don't think the forwards played particularly poorly. A few dropped balls, but would love to see the stats on drops per hundred carries - not sure it would be that different.

    Put it another way, you play that game 20 times, I'd expect us to win 19 of them with that outfit playing the way they did that night. I do not think it was a disaster.

    That said, we should still have had more composure and won the damn thing. That doesn't mean we played poorly though.



  • @nzzp all well and good, but to say we hardly miss him at all, while noting we should have been better? Hmmm...



  • @bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @nzzp all well and good, but to say we hardly miss him at all, while noting we should have been better? Hmmm...

    I think we have been playing well without him. Karl, Owen and Scott are all taking on a distribution role. Don't get me wrong - he's an incredible player, and I think the best in teh world before he got injured, but I do think we are playing well without him. These two things are not incompatible

    Edit: Close loss notwithstanding - I don't think the forwards played badly in that game



  • @nzzp ahh see I think there's a difference between playing well and not missing a beat.



  • @bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @nzzp ahh see I think there's a difference between playing well and not missing a beat.

    I think if he plays we probably win that game. But as I said - I think we played pretty well in that game, and certainly did enough to win the game. Just poor game management, and some ropey brain farts, combined with a Bokke team that really stepped up.

    Flip it around - if you're the Boks, is that your gameplan? Hope our kicker misses, score some great tries, and expect to burgle some intercepts? It's not a high percentage plan



  • @nzzp said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @nzzp all well and good, but to say we hardly miss him at all, while noting we should have been better? Hmmm...

    I think we have been playing well without him. Karl, Owen and Scott are all taking on a distribution role. Don't get me wrong - he's an incredible player, and I think the best in teh world before he got injured, but I do think we are playing well without him. These two things are not incompatible

    The 1014 analysis of that match focused on Owen Franks taking on the dedicated first receiver distribution role, they said the first time he has been in that role.

    Those guys are incredibly 'polite' in their player assessment, they depicted that as Hansen experimenting and putting individual players under pressure in different roles. Let's just say it wasn't a success. The distribution was more laboured and hesitant than usual and further behind the line than the more natural ball handlers Retallick and S Barrett operate - and NZ with 70% possession were constantly tackled behind the advantage line.

    My own expansion on the 1014 analysis:
    Retallick whether in role of pod distributor, or pod runner who can bend the line, was missed big time. The All Blacks resembled the Blues playing the Highlanders. All possession, no punch, playing too much rugby in the wrong parts of the field off back foot ball.



  • @rapido said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    My own expansion on the 1014 analysis:
    Retallick whether in role of pod distributor, or pod runner who can bend the line, was missed big time. The All Blacks resembled the Blues playing the Highlanders. All possession, no punch, playing too much rugby in the wrong parts of the field off back foot ball.

    ... and scoring six tries. Playing poorly.



  • @nzzp said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    @rapido said in Springboks V All Blacks:

    My own expansion on the 1014 analysis:
    Retallick whether in role of pod distributor, or pod runner who can bend the line, was missed big time. The All Blacks resembled the Blues playing the Highlanders. All possession, no punch, playing too much rugby in the wrong parts of the field off back foot ball.

    ... and scoring six tries. Playing poorly.

    and 2 of the 5 they let in could be written off as brain farts, or linked to frustration at having to play back-foot rugby leading players to try and make something out of nothing in the wrong part of the field ( a bit of an anacrhonism).

    Don't get wrong. I'm reasonably comfortable with how most of the team played, and it's an easy fix. Even without Retallick there are still at least 2 good pod distributors they can use who aren't Franks (was Whitelock v Argentina), and S Barrett is almost as good a double threat as Brodie.



  • I think we all seem to be agreeing that ABs were well off where they ought to have been, but still scored six tries and all but won.

    If I were Erasmus I'd be somewhat concerned what could happen if(when) ABs have a good day!



  • @pakman I'm following you around and agreeing with you. But everyone in world rugby is terrified of the ABs having a good day against them.

    Erasmus and Schmidt are, perhaps uniquely in world rugby, faced with the pressure of asking themselves realistically: how do we stop these bastards from having a good day.



  • Scrum should be interesting this week.

    I've been impressed with the Boks scrum this year, after a few indifferent years for them considering their traditional strength in that area.

    I was very interested in ABs v Boks 1 at Wellington, as it was the first time Karl T started a test and so I watched closely to how he would go in the starting role.

    I have to cast my memory back 2 weeks now.

    The scrums with starting front rows were pretty much parity, with, I thought, Tuinukuafe having a very, very slight edge on Malherbe on that side of the scrum, and Kitshoff and Franks cancelled each other out. When Mtarawira cam on as second half sub he had the edge on Ofa T. I would say Mtarawira must be the best scrummaging prop Ofa T has come up against in the fellow sub role.

    I also watched the Boks v Wallabies scrums as I was very interested to see how Tupou would go in the starting role. Again it was pretty much parity until subs came on.

    I'm probably placing too much importance on 2 test greenhorns in Tongan Thor and Karl T, and rating opposites against them. But I've been so impressed with both that it has got me looking more closely.

    Boks hammered the English scrum in June (including a pushover penalty try). But that comes with a caveat that I'm not very impressed with current British scrummaging after their performances on the Lions tour. But they dominatedat to escape, not just edged them. (Incidentally, Joe Marler was a British prop of whom my opinion grew after that tour, but he has announced his retirement last week aged 28.)


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