Bledisloe #1
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I love the doomsday angle on here atm
Just a thought moving forward. For so long our strength has been to play 15 man rugby with our forward's ability to ballplay and offload to create space. However, now times have changed and our overall gameplay hasn't right down to schoolboy level. Over the last 4 year WC cycle defenses have made leaps and bounds across the globe and our forwards' ability to catch and pass has been somewhat negated by this, yet our carrying has taken steps back.
Of note, I have heard various ABs coaches talk live over the years and they have always gone on about these skills (forwards) and it being our difference and you can build strength etc. a couple of months ago I heard Mike Cron talk and he was asked the one piece of advice he would give a young schoolboy, his response -Go to the gym, you need to build strength young. At the time I thought that was a massive comment considering the lengths NZ rugby has gone to emphasise skill development, this is the ABs forwards coach telling youngster we are not strong enough as a nation!!!
are we going to see a change in the development of players in NZ to combat this? NZ rugby has a strength of being able to as one move in its goal, we have thumbed our noses at NH focus on the gym vs skills yet look at u20s ABs etc we are overpowered in the forwards and other teams have caught up/developed game plans to combat our 15 man rugby.just a thought. hope we bounce back next week but a greater discussion to have about NZ rugby considering these comments from Cron.
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@sparky said in Bledisloe #1:
Trying to remember All Black performances that were as bad as tonight's:
Wellington 93 against the Lions
Christchurch 94 against France.
Christchurch 98 against Oz.
Sydney 99 against Oz.
Twickenham 99 against the Boks
Sydney 08 against Oz.
Chicago 16 against Ireland.Perth 19 right up there for the ABs looking flat.
The 17-pt loss to England at Twickers in 2012 was way up there. But you have to applaud their level of performance.
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@SammyC Exactly, the less Barrett plays at 10 the better he gets. It reminds me of how Keith Robinson became the best lock in the world on here despite hardly playing. Everyone seems to forget that they are playing Mounga because Barrett struggled with the rush defense and lost 2 of his last 3 tests against Ireland and 1 of his last 2 against South Africa.
But the discussion on Barrett/Mounga hides the problems upfront last night and last week. It's 1991 all over again with players such as Franks, Read and Whitelock hanging on. It also reminds me a bit of 2003 with no big ball runners in the pack, back then we were over reliant then on Collins and Mealamu. Now with Retallick out there is no go forward, no physicality.
I said last week we had become the Wallabies, and sure enough 2 7s didn't work. It was a panic selection despite Fox claiming we "have a plan for 6". Choose one and leave the other on the bench. There are no obvious replacements in the tight 5 and if we do drop Franks we gain around the park but our scrum becomes a liability.
The whole game plan and selection at the moment feels like a panic, everyone caught us and now we have to innovate. We hardly had any ball last night and the attacking structures left us vulnerable at the breakdown. It was only really the lead up to the third try where we manage to string together phases.
Finally, the Barrett to 10 / Smith to 15 hype completely ignores Ben Smith's from. He's right there with Read and Franks as one of the ones hanging on. He's lost the ability to make a half break and looks slow. He wasn't good at 15 against Argentina as he struggled under the high ball. He was put in space multiple times in the 2nd half against South Africa and was handled easily by the defense.
The competition has caught up. The whole team needs a refresh and Hanson/Foster/Mcleod are not the team to do it.
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@Machpants said in Bledisloe #1:
Before the card we had 20% possession and less territory. We were being dominated. Every time we got the ball we either kicked out away or dropped it. Utter crap
This has been coming for some time. For two years we have played rugby by kicking the ball away and generally being crap in the first half (knock on’s, penalties). The Wallabies won the contact hands down and played rugby for 80 mins. But this is primarily a coaching, selection and tactical failure. Time to put away the cross kicks, the chip kicks and the poor exits.
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I’m not giving up on Mo’unga at ten yet. Two minutes in the second half summed up B Barrett nicely. A great try, followed by a shithouse clearance from our 22.
Interesting how “from Accounts” seems to give Ben Smith a fairly free pass. He’s no more immune from the passing of time than we’ve seen from so many others in the All Blacks back three in the last ten years. At 33 he’s arguably well overdue...
That said, until the tight five stops looking like 2003, the backline selection doesn’t mean much.
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So, just considering the counterfactual to make everyone feel a bit better.
What happens if we don't cop a red card on half time, and go in 13-12 down?
I think our defence stays strong, and their struggle to maintain intensity and accuracy. They run out of ideas, get frustrated, and while it's a tight finish, our attack looks more fluid and we work our way to a 10 point lead. Rieko gets a bit of space, and his speed looks good on the outside.
Everyone but the Wobbles go home happy, and impressed at our mental strength on defence by not conceding many points despite playing one of the worst halves in ages and getting dominated.
Final score 32-22 to the good guys
Optimism much?
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@fcc said in Bledisloe #1:
There are no obvious replacements in the tight 5 and if we do drop Franks we gain around the park but our scrum becomes a liability.
I'd start Laulala next week. He has the same strengths and weaknesses as Franks, but should at least have more energy, and a point to prove.
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@Donsteppa said in Bledisloe #1:
@nzzp The squadron of pigs doing a flyover of the stadium at full time was also a fitting finale
was that the next (or current) coaching team?
Seriously, though, I don't think it's full panic stations yet. We're back in the pack unelss there's an awful lot of powder being kept dry. No red card, and that game goes to the wire and is probably in the balance ...
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@nzzp said in Bledisloe #1:
@Donsteppa said in Bledisloe #1:
@nzzp The squadron of pigs doing a flyover of the stadium at full time was also a fitting finale
was that the next (or current) coaching team?
Seriously, though, I don't think it's full panic stations yet. We're back in the pack unelss there's an awful lot of powder being kept dry. No red card, and that game goes to the wire and is probably in the balance ...
The less happy counterfactual to the red card is that the way the pressure was building - if it wasn’t S Barrett being an oaf - it might well have been someone else. Ardie’s silly smile after conceding the penalty two minutes before for dumb play looms large...
I’d like to think it’s the massive kick up the arse that the senior players and the coaching staff need, but they’ve had a few of those over the last two years that they’ve learnt little from.
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@Kirwan said in Bledisloe #1:
@Duluth well Hanson has been starting to collect the bad sort of records. Lions, Ireland, our number one ranking.
Is next week the Bledisloe?
Get out of here. He's number one for his whole coaching career and it is a bad record to suddenly be number 2? Weak analysis.
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@rotated said in Bledisloe #1:
@Duluth said in Bledisloe #1:
So ex-Canterbury and Crusaders Assistant Steve Hansen can lose the world #1 record, RWC and Bledisloe he was handed by Henry all in a couple of months?
You have to add something to the All Black legacy he said. Well the failed Lions Tour and first losses to Ireland did that.
edit @Kirwan beat me too it.
Insane. He wasn't handed it by Henry. He retained it every year.
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my 2 cents worth .
A lot of discussion re the backline , while it might not be perfect and a bit flaky , I still think it is the type of backline that could look a million bucks behind a dominant forward pack ,
But there lies the problem, We dont have that , and we could be going to a WC with a pack of forwards that will get dominated in the bigger games . ( 2003 anyone )
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@Wally said in Bledisloe #1:
I'd love to see the running metres of the 2 forward packs compared. The Aussies would be streets ahead.
approx 190 vs 124. O f which Ardie had 60, Coles 24. Thats out of overall 703 v 492, so backs relatively worse.
But, only Ardie (awesome) Coles (not bad) & Taylor (10) got double figures. there were a lot of 0, 1,2,3s
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@kiwiinmelb yea tough for the backs to get into their groove if the forwards aren't providing any kind of platform to launch from.
Forwards were always under pressure and at best for parts had parity but for the most were dominated, no matter the class you have out back, a forward performance like that and you will always struggle.
Obviously our balance is all out, no BBBR, and the never-ending search for NZ got a talented 6? somewhere, surely, plus some aging props offering little outside parity at scrumtime it means half the pack are not what we expect them to be.
I think Moody is still good to go, but attracts too many penalties, but Frank's is really struggling, offering next to nothing outside of scrums.
SB did himself zero favours as a lock nor as a contender for NZ got a talented 6?
Cane and Ardie, what to do there? I honestly think Cane needs to play the 6 role, let Ardie play his natural game as Cane seems better suited to the role we need from a 6.
Read looks to be playing into form at the right time, although there are questions over his captaincy qualities.
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@Machpants Thanks. It reminds me of that last Irish test we lost. Both starting Irish props ran for around 30 metres and Moody and Franks had 1 and 0 respectively. It's become a big liability for the All Blacks.
