Rant: Cyclists, Oz Bureaucracy ....
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="561731" data-time="1456796126">
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<p>I think you'll find the fine for running a red is the same for a Car as it is for a semi Trailer or even road train. So I see no need to differentiate on law breaking, determined by "size of vehicle"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It may drop off in short term but it will only be short term as people who like to cycle to work will do so as it will always be the cheapest method, with the only difference is to "not forget your wallet"</p>
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<p>Seriously mate, you liked your own post?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No wonder you guys had to increase the quota.</p> -
<p>Well I do see the need.. facts are that cars are more dangerous than bikes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>NZ transport released stats last year on this. In Car v Bicycle collisions the Cyclist was only at fault 23% of the time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's also been shown in many studies how much our compulsury helmet laws have affected numbers of cyclists on the road. So I reckon that an extra restriction is just going to magnify that effect</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="561734" data-time="1456796621">
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<p>Well I do see the need.. facts are that cars are more dangerous than bikes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>NZ transport released stats last year on this. In Car v Bicycle collisions the Cyclist was only at fault 23% of the time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's also been shown in many studies how much our compulsury helmet laws have affected numbers of cyclists on the road. So I reckon that an extra restriction is just going to magnify that effect</p>
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<p>But who cares if it makes everyone safer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>With new H&S regs coming into play, we can hardly be surpised and no area is left untouched.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You stat is meaningless, as 23% of the time it's the cyclists fault! 100% of the time it wouldn't have happened if cyclist wasn't on road. Another meaningless fact.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All you have done is whine because of change.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="561736" data-time="1456796828">
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<p>But who cares if it makes everyone safer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>With new H&S regs coming into play, we can hardly be surpised and no area is left untouched.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You stat is meaningless, as 23% of the time it's the cyclists fault! 100% of the time it wouldn't have happened if cyclist wasn't on road. Another meaningless fact.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All you have done is whine because of change.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Now you are being obtuse</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I definitely care if I am safer on the roads, you may not.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Surely that is the aim of all road laws... to make people safer? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>My stat is not meaningless at all. We are talking about the current situation... not a hypothetical world in which there are zero cyclists</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="561737" data-time="1456797108">
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<p>Now you are being obtuse</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I definitely care if I am safer on the roads, you may not.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Surely that is the aim of all road laws... to make people safer? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>My stat is not meaningless at all. We are talking about the current situation... not a hypothetical world in which there are zero cyclists</p>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Crossed wires? You seem to suggest helmet regulation will drive cyclists off the road and I said who cares as this is safety we are talking about.</p> -
<p>This guy makes the point better than me on why I believe the laws are silly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.executivestyle.com.au/latest-nsw-cycling-safety-launch-misses-the-mark-glzzv2#ixzz3wWw2Wt2E'>http://www.executivestyle.com.au/latest-nsw-cycling-safety-launch-misses-the-mark-glzzv2#ixzz3wWw2Wt2E</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>This bit particularly</p><strong>The hidden impact</strong>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>One concern is that this law might impact the people who are the least committed of riders – or can least afford to pay for the error. </strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>Sports and commuter cyclists are seen as the predominant bike riders in Australia, but it's easy to forget the unheralded, unrepresented utility riders, especially those on low incomes. </strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>And increased participation is a crucial element of cycling safety – not through creating more enthusiasts, but by encouraging more people who will never view themselves as "cyclists" to get on a bike. </strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>On Tuesday, Anthony Albanese penned an article for Fairfax Media about <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.smh.com.au/comment/pedal-power-better-facilities-for-cyclists-will-help-in-the-fight-against-congestion-20151229-glw5zc.html'>the benefits of cycling as a way to reduce congestion</a>. </strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>"Smart governments should be doing everything they can to identify impediments to greater use of bicycles," wrote Labor's federal opposition spokesman on transport.</strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>How does this square with new, unheard-of cycling regulations? </strong></p><strong>An expensive ride</strong>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>Meanwhile, consider a coastal resident cycling to the beach for a swim in the near future.</strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>To avoid a section of busy road, he rolls onto the footpath – permitted in Queensland, the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia (which lifted the ban two months ago) – but illegal in NSW.</strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>He's wearing a broad-brimmed hat to keep off the sun, rather than a helmet - a legal choice in almost 99 per cent of the world's nations, and even in the Northern Territory when you ride on footpaths or bike lanes. That fine will be an astonishing $319, up from $71.</strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>When stopped by a police officer, it turns out he's not carrying ID, for fear of losing it on the beach. Another $106.</strong></p>
<p style="font-size:16px;font-family:Karla, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><strong>All up, he could be liable for some $500 in fines for rolling a few blocks to the beach on a bike.</strong></p>
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<p>In my previous life I did some auditing of an Insurers motorcycle book; and >70% of the time, the motorcyclist was at fault in accidents.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So despite all the protesting (when new ACC levies came in) that cars are the biggest fault in accidents, evidence is contrary, I know we are talking cyclists here, but it isn't a huge leap IMO.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="561738" data-time="1456797205">
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<p>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Crossed wires? You seem to suggest helmet regulation will drive cyclists off the road and I said who cares as this is safety we are talking about.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>No evidence of increased safety through mandatory helmet laws I believe?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="561741" data-time="1456797367">
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<p>No evidence of increased safety through mandatory helmet laws I believe?</p>
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<p>no evidence of increased safety or no evidence of increased injury as result of accidents, I expect there is likely to be a bit of a difference between the outcome of accidents with and without helmets?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="561739" data-time="1456797253">
<div>
<p>This guy makes the point better than me on why I believe the laws are silly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.executivestyle.com.au/latest-nsw-cycling-safety-launch-misses-the-mark-glzzv2#ixzz3wWw2Wt2E'>http://www.executivestyle.com.au/latest-nsw-cycling-safety-launch-misses-the-mark-glzzv2#ixzz3wWw2Wt2E</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>This bit particularly</p>
<strong>The hidden impact</strong>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>One concern is that this law might impact the people who are the least committed of riders – or can least afford to pay for the error. </strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>Sports and commuter cyclists are seen as the predominant bike riders in Australia, but it's easy to forget the unheralded, unrepresented utility riders, especially those on low incomes. </strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>And increased participation is a crucial element of cycling safety – not through creating more enthusiasts, but by encouraging more people who will never view themselves as "cyclists" to get on a bike. </strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>On Tuesday, Anthony Albanese penned an article for Fairfax Media about <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.smh.com.au/comment/pedal-power-better-facilities-for-cyclists-will-help-in-the-fight-against-congestion-20151229-glw5zc.html'>the benefits of cycling as a way to reduce congestion</a>. </strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>"Smart governments should be doing everything they can to identify impediments to greater use of bicycles," wrote Labor's federal opposition spokesman on transport.</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>How does this square with new, unheard-of cycling regulations? </strong></p>
<strong>An expensive ride</strong>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>Meanwhile, consider a coastal resident cycling to the beach for a swim in the near future.</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>To avoid a section of busy road, he rolls onto the footpath – permitted in Queensland, the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia (which lifted the ban two months ago) – but illegal in NSW.</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>He's wearing a broad-brimmed hat to keep off the sun, rather than a helmet - a legal choice in almost 99 per cent of the world's nations, and even in the Northern Territory when you ride on footpaths or bike lanes. That fine will be an astonishing $319, up from $71.</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>When stopped by a police officer, it turns out he's not carrying ID, for fear of losing it on the beach. Another $106.</strong></p>
<p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Karla, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><strong>All up, he could be liable for some $500 in fines for rolling a few blocks to the beach on a bike.</strong></p>
<p> </p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's a tip for not only this idiot but anyone who can't afford to pay fines...</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>DON'T BREAK THE RULES!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So basically we are at</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don't break the rules and carry ya wallet.....?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I bet the majoirty of cyclists do this. Even those daft looking pistonwristedgibbons at cafes on the weekend and their wallets to by their half caf soy mocha's</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561742" data-time="1456797556">
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<p>no evidence of increased safety or no evidence of increased injury as result of accidents, I expect there is likely to be a bit of a difference between the outcome of accidents with and without helmets?</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html'>http://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Seeing as we are talking about Australia here I'll elaborate based on that</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(46,139,87);font-family:Monaco, 'Andale Mono', 'Courier New', Courier, mono;font-size:11.7px;">In the Netherlands from 2003 to 2007, 27.5% of cyclist casualties admitted to hospital had head or brain injuries.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(46,139,87);font-family:Monaco, 'Andale Mono', 'Courier New', Courier, mono;font-size:11.7px;">In Australia in 2005/06, 25.7% of cyclists with serious injuries had head injuries.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(46,139,87);font-family:Monaco, 'Andale Mono', 'Courier New', Courier, mono;font-size:11.7px;">Based on these figures, the Netherlands has a 1.8% greater proportion of cyclist head injuries than does Australia. The Netherlands had an average 2,150 cyclist head/brain injuries per year from 2003-2007, compared to 1,122 serious head injuries in Australia in 2005/06.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(46,139,87);font-family:Monaco, 'Andale Mono', 'Courier New', Courier, mono;font-size:11.7px;">In the Netherlands from 2003/07, an average 8,000 cyclists were admitted to hospital each year. In Australia in 2005/06, 4,370 cyclists suffered serious injury.</span></p>
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<p>1.8% more head injuries, wow!<br><br>
In a population where almost nobody wears a helmet when riding about town and country. Yep, that seems a fairly manageable level of increased injury. Nobody here is claiming that helmetless riding has zero risk, just that the negatives of helmet compulsion are not backed up by real benefits.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>now if we factor in that On average, every Dutch person cycles 2.5km every day and 93% of the population rides a bike at least once a week. Every Australian cycles about 0.1km every day I think the stats show that the helmets are't helping much.</p>
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<p>is the cycling infrastructure comparable?</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="561743" data-time="1456797681">
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<p>Here's a tip for not only this idiot but anyone who can't afford to pay fines...</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>DON'T BREAK THE RULES!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So basically we are at</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don't break the rules and carry ya wallet.....?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I bet the majoirty of cyclists do this. Even those daft looking pistonwristedgibbons at cafes on the weekend and their wallets to by their half caf soy mocha's</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>OK mate.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So seeing as you are wealthy enough to afford the fines, it's OK for you to break the road rules in your car (I'm sure you've broken the speed limit before) but it's not OK for those who can't?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561746" data-time="1456798959">
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<p>is the cycling infrastructure comparable?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Thers's shitloads of data online bro.. I just posted one set of figures.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you are really that interested I suggest the following website</p>
<p> </p>
<p>www.google.com</p> -
Anthony Albanese is perhaps not the best person to be the poster boy for cycling or any physical activity for that matter. Would be like Clive Palmer advocating healthy eating.<br><br>
Agree with the helmet law being excessive. The fact that not even the uber nanny states in Europe force you to wear a helmet should tell you something. -
<p>I'm not really that interested, TBH I just think that sometimes things aren't as black and white as some like to paint them...so was just asking as you come across as someone who appears to know an awful lot on the subject.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>appreciate the link to google though, what exactly does it do, or should I search something else to find out?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561751" data-time="1456800707">
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<p>I'm not really that interested, TBH I just think that sometimes things aren't as black and white as some like to paint them...so just asking as you seem to profess to know an awful lot on the subject</p>
<p> </p>
<p>appreciate the link to google though, what exactly does it do, or should I search something else to find out?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>It's pretty black and white.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In every country that has introduced mandatory helmet laws for cyclists, serious injuries to cyclists have increased.</p> -
<p>so is it a conspiracy from cycle helmet manufacturers to get people to wear them, cos if wearing them increases serious injuries, what other explanation is there?</p>