Springboks v All Blacks



  • Now that the Rest & Rotation tour is half done, who gets a rest this week? I was thinking Read may get a game off, but I think that will be the Italy EOY Tour game.

    So here's my 23 for the South Africa test.

    1. Moody
    2. Coles
    3. Faumauina
    4. Romano
    5. Whitelock
    6. Kaino
    7. Todd
    8. Read
    9. A.Smith
    10. Sopoaga
    11. Naholo
    12. Crotty, or maybe ALB
    13. Fekitoa
    14. Dagg
    15. B.Smith
    16. Taylor
    17. Crockett
    18. Tu'ungafasi
    19. Retallick
    20. Savea
    21. TKB
    22. Barrett
    23. Moala

    Franks, J.Savea, Perenara to get a rest. A. Savea to come off the bench.
    D-Mac out. Maybe Coltman in for Taylor
    Would actually prefer Tuipolutu over Romano. Can't see Dixon or Squire getting another go, unless they spell Ardie altogether.
    Would also prefer Barrett starts, but need to give Sopoanga a crack eh...



  • Resting Barrett ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????



  • They could sub Jordie in and nobody would even notice.



  • @westcoastie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    Now that the Rest & Rotation tour is half done, who gets a rest this week? I was thinking Read may get a game off, but I think that will be the Italy EOY Tour game.

    So here's my 23 for the South Africa test.

    1. Moody
    2. Coles
    3. Faumauina
    4. Romano
    5. Whitelock
    6. Kaino
    7. Todd
    8. Read
    9. A.Smith
    10. Sopoaga
    11. Naholo
    12. Crotty, or maybe ALB
    13. Fekitoa
    14. Dagg
    15. B.Smith
    16. Taylor
    17. Crockett
    18. Tu'ungafasi
    19. Retallick
    20. Savea
    21. TKB
    22. Barrett
    23. Moala

    Franks, J.Savea, Perenara to get a rest. A. Savea to come off the bench.
    D-Mac out. Maybe Coltman in for Taylor
    Would actually prefer Tuipolutu over Romano. Can't see Dixon or Squire getting another go, unless they spell Ardie altogether.
    Would also prefer Barrett starts, but need to give Sopoanga a crack eh...

    That would be 9 changes from todays starting 15, cant see it.

    Maybe give Whitelock a run with PT, Kaino back, Smith back, that would be all I'd change.



  • @taniwharugby they made 9 between the last two tests...



  • After this morning you'd have to be a crazy person to change that midfield. Fekitoa can earn his way back in.



  • @westcoastie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @taniwharugby they made 9 between the last two tests...

    really? Didnt realise there were that many...still cant see them ringing that many again.



  • @Unco big picture... I think they'll looking at the South Africa game as a trial, because they'll be targetting that next game against Australia.

    Smith is definitely coming back in for Perenara. Makes sense to pair him with Sopoaga, Naholo & Fekitoa and B.Smith - effectively a Highlanders backline.

    Being so far up allowed the coaching staff the opportunity to give guys a longer rest than usual. Barrett definitely could use a spell - he was down a level today.



  • @taniwharugby may have been 8 across the 23.

    9 seems like a lot, but Smith/Sopoaga v Perenara/Barrett - neither here nor there..
    Naholo w/ Savea - neither here nor there.
    Whitelock for Retallick - neither here nor there.
    Crotty probably gets the 12 jersey (forgot hes been out with concussion, his combo with Fekitoa has been pretty good tbh. So Fekitoa in for ALB neither here nor there..
    Pretty clear Kaino is coming back in, or why bring him to SA.
    A. Savea could use a spell to freshen up before we blitz the Aussies.
    O Franks hasn't had a spell.

    I don't think the changes are that much of a big deal.
    Maybe Barrett stays at 10, just let him keep on keepin' on.



  • @westcoastie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @Unco big picture... I think they'll looking at the South Africa game as a trial, because they'll be targetting that next game against Australia.

    Smith is definitely coming back in for Perenara. Makes sense to pair him with Sopoaga, Naholo & Fekitoa and B.Smith - effectively a Highlanders backline.

    Being so far up allowed the coaching staff the opportunity to give guys a longer rest than usual. Barrett definitely could use a spell - he was down a level today.

    I'm not against giving Sopoaga or Naholo runs but I really don't like the idea of chopping and changing by far the best midfield combo we've seen this season. Give the combo more time to settle.



  • Barrett doesn't need a rest. He hasn't had years of test rugby that would require it. If he was down on form (I thought he was fine) then it would be reason to say we want to see an improvement on X and Y.

    Is Fekitoa fully fit?

    I would start A. Savea again. He's the number 2 openside in the coaches eyes, so if the number 1 isn't fit, you don't rest the number 2.

    I wouldn't be against seeing Squire get another run.



  • I'd be tempted to give Dixon some minutes, maybe even at 7. I think despite the different positions he's logically more read, and squire is more kaino - but captains play all the time, so to get some playing time into him they need to change the loose balance, and I don't think losing kainos grunt is a great idea against the boks - even these relatively lightweight boks.
    Lima has to be a good chance for a run given his last performance over there, but I'd keep Barret starting. Get naholo in asap, but both midfielders have earned another shot.



  • Yeah, I can't quite see why A Savea would need a rest.



  • Moody, Coles, Faumuiana
    Tuipolotu, Whitelock
    Kaino Savea, Read

    Smith, Sopoaaga
    Crotty, ALB
    Naholo, Smith, Dagg

    Res forwards: Crockett, Taylor, Tu'agafasi, Retallick, Dixon (or Dixon, Todd)
    Res backs: TJP or TKB, Barrett, Moala



  • Test rugby is a funny thing eh. Loads of people talking up ardie beforehand, and sure he's done okay, but nobody really talking up injury replacement Al B, and he just quietly comes in and nails it.



  • @taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @westcoastie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    Now that the Rest & Rotation tour is half done, who gets a rest this week? I was thinking Read may get a game off, but I think that will be the Italy EOY Tour game.

    So here's my 23 for the South Africa test.

    1. Moody
    2. Coles
    3. Faumauina
    4. Romano
    5. Whitelock
    6. Kaino
    7. Todd
    8. Read
    9. A.Smith
    10. Sopoaga
    11. Naholo
    12. Crotty, or maybe ALB
    13. Fekitoa
    14. Dagg
    15. B.Smith
    16. Taylor
    17. Crockett
    18. Tu'ungafasi
    19. Retallick
    20. Savea
    21. TKB
    22. Barrett
    23. Moala

    Franks, J.Savea, Perenara to get a rest. A. Savea to come off the bench.
    D-Mac out. Maybe Coltman in for Taylor
    Would actually prefer Tuipolutu over Romano. Can't see Dixon or Squire getting another go, unless they spell Ardie altogether.
    Would also prefer Barrett starts, but need to give Sopoanga a crack eh...

    That would be 9 changes from todays starting 15, cant see it.

    Maybe give Whitelock a run with PT, Kaino back, Smith back, that would be all I'd change.

    I'm with TR. Reckon it will be much closer to the 1st xv/xxiii.
    Charlie back to bench?
    Ofa to lh bench maayybee?
    PT & SW to start. BBBR to bench.
    JK to start if ok.
    Smith at 9.

    ...



  • @booboo Ofa is NOT a test LH. I personally don't see Todd featuring, barring accidents. Expect Kaino will start. Think a lock will be on bench and Squire/Dixon, depending on what they see as the requirements for versatility. Naholo to start if fit. Would like to see Lima get some real game time. I see ALB as Crotty-swappable. So if Crotty crocked, then ALB/Fekitoa/Moala in 23. Not likely, but I'd like to see George have gametime at 12.



  • The Springboks won't be easy meat this time. They are always hard to beat in their garden. So expect a full strength AB team to face them :
    Moody Coles Franks
    Whitelock Retallick
    Kaino Savea Read
    Smith Barrett
    Savea Crotty ALB Dagg
    Smith

    Maybe Naholo for Savea or Dagg.

    Reserves :
    Crockett Taylor Faumuina
    Tuipolutu Squire
    TJP Sopoaga Moala



  • @pakman that's why I qualified Ofa with the "maaybee". I can't really see it but given they're trying to get him to cover both sides they may (may) want to try that for development.

    But yeah, nah.



  • @cgrant said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    The Springboks won't be easy meat this time. They are always hard to beat in their garden.

    Yes they will.
    Not any more.

    Retrograde step to go back to the first XV out of "fear factor".



  • @cgrant said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    Moody Coles Franks
    Whitelock Retallick
    Kaino Savea Read
    Smith Barrett
    Savea Crotty ALB Dagg
    Smith

    I think that's close to what they will go for.

    Maybe Moody gets dropped for Crockett after that silly YC?
    I also think they are planning on starting Faumuina for this game after they left him out of the 23 against the Argies



  • Well, Liam Napier in Stuff has already selected his left winger:

    "Other than botching a try in the second half Julian Savea was superb against the Pumas, beating his man regularly and making metres at will."

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/84881360/Changes-certain-to-follow-All-Blacks-from-Buenos-Aires-to-Durban

    Need to watch the game again but my impression was that Savea got a lot of good ball and really didn't do much with it. The metres Napier's stats say he made were due to other players giving him plenty of space.



  • I don't think Savea had a huge amount of space. He was given the ball behind the gain line a few times so was able to get up a head of steam, but there was never any clear overlaps. The bar is set bloody high for him - if he has 3m to work up a head of steam he's expected to stampede over the defense every time. If all he does it make 5-10m that's a failure.

    He wasn't at his best, and the try he botched was frustrating to watch, but he wasn't bad either. "Superb" is taking it too far though, I'd say he was "solid".



  • @Tregaskis said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    Well, Liam Napier in Stuff has already selected his left winger:

    "Other than botching a try in the second half Julian Savea was superb against the Pumas, beating his man regularly and making metres at will."

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/84881360/Changes-certain-to-follow-All-Blacks-from-Buenos-Aires-to-Durban

    Need to watch the game again but my impression was that Savea got a lot of good ball and really didn't do much with it. The metres Napier's stats say he made were due to other players giving him plenty of space.

    On Saturday night, in the lead up to the NRL grand final, I watched 35 year old footage¹ of Parramatta's Eric Grothe running 40 odd metres at pace, changing direction and switching the ball from left to right arm four times to fend or bump off five tacklers with good technique. It was instinctive.

    After watching on Sunday and reading to remind myself of Julian Savea's history I am not convinced of his further entitlement.

    He is well able to charge along a straight line, run over tacklers and swerve a bit but he needs to be competent in much more than that, as were Doug Howlett, Joe, Sivi, Hosea and Rico. There is something wrong there - after NZ secondary schools in 2008, then NZ Under 20s, NZ Sevens; seven years with the Wellington Lions, six years with the Hurricanes and four with the All Blacks you'd reckon several of those top end coaches have told him, coached him and drilled him to switch the ball when he fends and bumps. Perhaps he knows better than them or simply forgets to remember.

    I say he has had time and attention enough already. There are others worthy of a go.

    ¹



  • IMO - Naholo is far more dangerous than Savea. Quicker and lower center of gravity makes it harder to bring him down.



  • So Dagg is a lock at 14? While I appreciate his aerial skills and that he fits the Jane/Skudder mould of FB/Winger. he is not the winger you want scoring in the corner. Funny how one of his best attributes, his boot, is wasted on the wing. I'd break with conventional wisdom and have Savea and Naholo play.



  • Full strength team will be picked for SA.
    They just got a needed boost of confidence over the weekend - now with the opportunity to put back to back wins together @ home, where the next game is against us, we embarrassed them last time, needless to say they're gonna be fired up as fuck.

    After this weekend, Crotty/ALB is our best midfield available.



  • @broughie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    So Dagg is a lock at 14? While I appreciate his aerial skills and that he fits the Jane/Skudder mould of FB/Winger. he is not the winger you want scoring in the corner. Funny how one of his best attributes, his boot, is wasted on the wing. I'd break with conventional wisdom and have Savea and Naholo play.

    Have you not seen Savea play recently? He doesn't have aerial skills, he doesn't have a boot, and on recent evidence he is not the winger you want scoring in the corner. How long do we wait for him to come right?

    Liam Napier clearly was watching old tapes of Savea. He had one run in space and was tackled by the first defender he came to - he used to have power, strength and guile, sadly used to are the operative words.



  • Yeah big forward pack plus Ardie
    Nugget at half. Dagg on a wing to field Morning stains kicks and the previous incumbant winger Naholo.

    Pat T and Sammy to start with BBBR on the bench if resting is so important, which it is.
    Todd on the reserves to counter Louw for 80 mins



  • This post is deleted!


  • @Nepia He hasn't done bad this RC, has he? Yeah, he's not the star performer, but he's picked up a few tries, made some decent runs and played ok.

    We already have 2 fullbacks in the back 3, I think the balance back there is ok.



  • @Nepia said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @broughie said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    So Dagg is a lock at 14? While I appreciate his aerial skills and that he fits the Jane/Skudder mould of FB/Winger. he is not the winger you want scoring in the corner. Funny how one of his best attributes, his boot, is wasted on the wing. I'd break with conventional wisdom and have Savea and Naholo play.

    Have you not seen Savea play recently? He doesn't have aerial skills, he doesn't have a boot, and on recent evidence he is not the winger you want scoring in the corner. How long do we wait for him to come right?

    Liam Napier clearly was watching old tapes of Savea. He had one run in space and was tackled by the first defender he came to - he used to have power, strength and guile, sadly used to are the operative words.

    I don't think he played badly Saturday. He did not have much space and he had the ball in his wrong arm. Not sure this is the norm for him. Given the same circumstances Dagg would not have come close to scoring. Not homing for Savea. I think Nahalo has been the form winger outside of fielding high balls. I just think that when teams are game planning they are more likely to put a circle around Savea, at least as an offensive threat. Poise under a high ball a liability. At least Savea does not have that God awful goose step that Dagg persists with.



  • @MajorRage said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @Nepia He hasn't done bad this RC, has he? Yeah, he's not the star performer, but he's picked up a few tries, made some decent runs and played ok.

    We already have 2 fullbacks in the back 3, I think the balance back there is ok.

    @broughie The Savea of old would have scored that try easily and there was clearly space - he just fluffed it and the ball in the wrong hand shouldn't be dismissed off hand.

    I think that Savea gets held to a different standard to most players. I don't think he's been the best wing in the country for over 12 months now but he keeps getting selected on his past glories and the hope he'll come right. He's had one standout game in this RC and one in the World Cup but other than that he's just taking up space.

    He's awesome when in form, but I stop kidding myself he was (in form) a long time ago.



  • Wow, Savea a waste of space? Going on his form in the RC I wholeheartedly disagree.

    Edit: And to think that, you've either got something against him or you've lost the plot. Or both.



  • @Nepia you seem to be on a bit of crusade to prove Savea is shit or god knows what. I call bullshit. He has easily justified his selection this RC with some very good games and some good tries that were very similar to the one he didn't get in this game. Funnily enough Dagg got bundled into touch on the other wing too. They aren't the first and won't be the last to not score a tight one or carry the ball in the wrong hand.

    The other point is that Savea hasn't been selected because there is some conspiracy. He has been selected because the guys who are challenging him for his spot keep getting broken.



  • @Bones said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    Wow, Savea a waste of space? Going on his form in the RC I wholeheartedly disagree.

    Edit: And to think that, you've either got something against him or you've lost the plot. Or both.

    I didn't say waste, I said taking up.

    I have got something against him - I've just outlined it over two posts, he's a shadow of his former self, he's slower, less agile and misses chances he'd have walked in a couple of seasons ago. His form is barely better than when his franchise coach dropped him for the crucial matches of their best ever season.

    @pukunui I'm not on a crusade, I just don't think he's been playing very well. I'm not going to pretend I think any different because you and MR think different and Bones thinks I've lost the plot. I also never said there was a conspiracy, Hansen clearly likes him and he backs players he likes.

    I'm actually genuinely surprised how many people are going to the mattresses for Savea as he's hardly been a standout performer in a long time. You'd think I have issues with Ben Smith such is the white knighting that's going on here.



  • You've lost the plot. He's had a couple of very good games and whilst he wasn't exactly a superstar against the Argies, he did some very good stuff. Just like Coles, Smith and a number of other players....



  • @Nepia Here you go, some stats for this guy who's only taking up space.

    Currently tied 1st for tries, equal with Ben Smith and Crotty.

    Shockingly, he's way down at 8th on the carries list with only 42. Oh but that's odd as he tops the metres list with 378 (next best is Isa with 361).

    Top on clean breaks with 11, (Ben Smith 10, Isa, 8 ).

    4th in Defenders beaten with 16 (Smith 20, Isa 19, Barrett 17).

    This stats are from the Herald, so not sure how accurate, but hey, seem to paint a picture of a guy doing something right, even if he's not in the form which might get him compared to Jonah.



  • I can remember off the top of my head 4 very strong runs from Savea in the last game, 3 times bumping off the first defender and the other time clean stepping him. He's there to do a job and he's doing it well. It's hardly a surprising that ALB and Crotty had plenty of space when Savea is standing on the wing. Hell part of the reason Crotty made the break that led to the breakout try was because the Argie defense was hell bent on cutting down space for Savea outside him.

    He draws defenders and runs strongly. And that's when he's not at his best. There is daylight between him and the next best 11 right now. Unless you're still fluffing Lowe?

    No white-knighting. Just calling out an obvious bias from someone determined to ignore anything positive he does.



  • @Bones said in Springboks v All Blacks, whos in?:

    @Nepia Here you go, some stats for this guy who's only taking up space.

    Currently tied 1st for tries, equal with Ben Smith and Crotty.

    Shockingly, he's way down at 8th on the carries list with only 42. Oh but that's odd as he tops the metres list with 378 (next best is Isa with 361).

    Top on clean breaks with 11, (Ben Smith 10, Isa, 8 ).

    4th in Defenders beaten with 16 (Smith 20, Isa 19, Barrett 17).

    This stats are from the Herald, so not sure how accurate, but hey, seem to paint a picture of a guy doing something right, even if he's not in the form which might get him compared to Jonah.

    Good post but who is Isa?


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