I think if you look at the whole picture it’s clear to me that the selections of not just the wings but the whole team is about trying to capitalize on our points of difference relative to other teams. The easy conservative selections against Springboks would to choose defensively and match them. Choose Owen Franks, choose a big 6, choose Bender at fullback and Jordie on one wing to counter their kicking. Instead Hansen chooses to capitalize on our points of differences areas that we don’t just match the opposition but where they will struggle to beat us. Props who can handle, an electric back row, form wings who can finish, an irrepressible full back. I salute Hansen for making the aggressive selections and I think he was leaning that way on the wings in 2015 with NMS and Naholo, but Naholo disappointed in pool stages.

I am wary of getting pulled down twitter/facebook rabbitholes but probably helpful to add some perspective as a person of color is the US. The content of the initial letter is nothing new in the US and many countries that do contain underpriviliged and undersestimated people. I am doubtful that it was written by a black professor but that claim will always give it a bigger push. The core of the argument is familiar, always slightly different, why do light skin blacks perform better than dark skin blacks, why do black women perform better than black men, the same things were heard on plantations, in Southern Africa why do coloreds perform better than African, or elsewhere why are Tutsis better than Hutus, why are Carribean american Blacks better than African-American blacks. The common thread is that many of these differences are minimal but have roots in oppression, and were perpetuated for the benefit a few. There are a long list of ways and reasons that there effects still manifest themselves and many books which cover that ground. Yes particularly in America there is opportunity for everyone, but even successful blacks , Robert Smith, Oprah Winfrey , Lebron James who laud hard work will bring light to the extreme inequality that makes the road very tough for any young person of color. The unequal opportunity starts at kindergarten, continues through school, continues in police interactions, the legal system the list is long. The struggles are not limited to socio-economic status though this is clearly a factor. Very instructive to hear the NBA players, coaches (Doc Rivers, ) GM (Masai Ujiri) opine on their feelings and experiences and one understands the fear , anxiety and frustration to be a black man in America. Particularly Doc Rivers talking about the talk every black family must have with their young sons.

The other notable point was the idea that "Black Lives Matter" is some kind of a political, party composed of anarchists and rioters a narrative that has been effective for Trump and co but a source of frustration for most supporters who are peaceful. At its core I dont think the statement could be clearer and simpler " We matter, our lives matter, see us, help us". On the other side I do love the mobilization and voting efforts initiated by NBA players and others , making voting difficult for black people is something that has happened for years and to make this more accessible and easier can be a game changer. For the record black voters pretty much brought Biden from the brink , so lets see what happens in November.

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

I think half the problem is, up until the start of last year, the ABs thought they were perfectly positioned. And then they got muddled in their thinking, panicked, and left us in a mess. And a few chickens came home to roost as well with regards to developmental processes.

Lost faith in their senior players who fell off a cliff, didn't keep experience on the paddock, had terrible luck with injuries, missed a strong leader, and you get the volatile performances that wind up in a semifinal spanking.

In a world cup year it's a bit much to
change your back 3
constantly shuffle your midfield
change your 10
change your thinking at 6. twice.

In my mind way simpler than that, our three workhorses Rettallick, Whitelock and Read all came up empty. Read probably stuck around 2 years too long, Rettalick underdone and Whitelock nothing left in the tank.

So far it just seems to be a masterclass from Hansen and his coaches, Despite my complaints about leaving J. Ioane at home and B Smith out of the 23, the selections have been outstanding so far. The balance of experience and youth has been perfect, even if it would have been easier to go the conservative route Hansen has been aggressive and it’s paid off. The young Crusaders in the backs have repaid Hansen’s faith enormously. Also amazing is tactically the ABs seem to be adjusting to the rush defenses and defensively they also seem to be going lower in the tackle. Was always confident ABs would win by more than a try but the possibility of a hiding was material and that’s what we got. Bring on England.

I appreciate responses from some posters that I should continue dialogue and with out sounding like a softie it is difficult. I think I feel a little like Doc Rivers when he said he does not want to talk about this stuff he wants to coach and its true, talking about rugby way more fun.

I'll just go through some points super quick, I am not trying to avoid anything but lots to go through

I have seen plenty of videos like Mikethe Snow posted and it has been very frustrating for many, often the instigators I see are white but I could not venture to say what the exact numbers are by race but fair to say its the instigators are an absolute minority. I also would not write off the influence of right wing instigators, this is absolutely a factor.

I think @Rembrandt said something about 30+ murders since George Floyd, I don't even know what that means, I believe there are at least 45+ murders a day in the US in general. Outside of these protests I also would not discount general social unrest that is fermenting through the growing wealth inequality, lockdown etc, but thats a whole thread in itself.

I would repeat BLM is really about the core statement and actions that can be taken to address that statement. I know some thing that its a "cute" statement but I watch CNBC everyday and its great to see business leaders of all races taking it absolutely seriously. Perhaps that will be the first driver for change. Forget about the supposed BLM leaders or the people who have claimed websites, most people don't even know who they are. Think about the overwhelming number of blacks and majority of whites who support the statement and movement.

Sorry if I am all over the map, but just letting it all out. I saw someone mention that LeBron James said "We are scared", I can confirm , I am petrified for myself and for my family. Guaranteed every black person of all economic classes has least one person close to them who has had a jaw dropping interaction with police. For those who say just comply, that's the point, compliance is no guarantee against safety , humiliation or death, we are not making it up, its just that a fraction of these interactions are now being captured on video. And guess what unarmed people in fear of their lives sometimes act irrationally. I hear so many stories of drunk, mentally ill, or armed white kids having the most "civil" interactions with police, not sure why that same care isn't taken with all American citizens.

What about the stats you ask , ah another old time hit. But blacks are more violent , blacks commit more crime, black-on-black crime? Lets start of with black population 48million people? Enough to say that an attempt to smear the vast majority of that number with US murders and crime falls short in my opinion. And how about a higher percentage convicted than whites? I won't even get into the legal representations or overall legal system but just enough to say it would be much more informative to see the numbers broken down by socio-economic class as well as the actual numbers we are talking about with respect to population. Black-on-black crime? Not much different from white-on-white crime.

Sorry tired now.

@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):

People in this forum are great fans of Richie Mounga. He's had a mare : missed an easy tackle on Daly who is not the quickest fullback nor the strongest one (this led to England's first try), then could not handle the English rush defence. Let's hope he'll learn from this very disappointing performance.
The Bounga experiment was clearly a failure with BB's kicking from hand being an issue. Would DMac have done better ?

I hate the loss but I hate these kind of posts after the loss even worse. No complaints about Bounga after Wallabies, South Africa or Ireland , now its a failure? Nothing to suggest any other available combo would have done better. Really did not think Ritchie was the problem.

@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.

I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.

@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:

Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?

My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.

If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.

Good news is the growth of Laulala, Hames, Taylor and Tuingafasi in the front row is awesome at least it should be Crockett’s last year.

I think people putting far too much weight into that England game, we were flat as England were against SA. Our “small” team was certainly big enough when we played the Boks and I would say our back row and midfield came out on top. ALB/Laumape/Goodhue/Ennor all have the physical/skill requirements to excel at Test level. My one question would be our line speed in defence, we have not been that consistent as to whether we push really hard or hold back a little even though results have tended to be good if not a little mixed. I think Savea cannot be left out f starting XV and Cane if fit has to have a place which definitely leaves room for one big unit in Reads abscence and though all contenders have all been a little dissaponting you hope someone puts their hand up this season. In the second row Tuipolotu can solidify his spot and Barrett minus silly penalties plays above his size.

@pakman said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@DMX said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

I think half the problem is, up until the start of last year, the ABs thought they were perfectly positioned. And then they got muddled in their thinking, panicked, and left us in a mess. And a few chickens came home to roost as well with regards to developmental processes.

Lost faith in their senior players who fell off a cliff, didn't keep experience on the paddock, had terrible luck with injuries, missed a strong leader, and you get the volatile performances that wind up in a semifinal spanking.

In a world cup year it's a bit much to
change your back 3
constantly shuffle your midfield
change your 10
change your thinking at 6. twice.

In my mind way simpler than that, our three workhorses Rettallick, Whitelock and Read all came up empty. Read probably stuck around 2 years too long, Rettalick underdone and Whitelock nothing left in the tank.

that was massive for us. But i can only blame the coaches for 1 of those. And in reality, those were the "development" things i was talking about, we did not have a back up 8 or lock of any substance.

There is also the overseas money. Hard to keep a capped player who is set to ride the pine when there’s huge bucks available. Assuming Read was recognised as having just taken too much damage — back in particular — Steve Luatua would have been great to have had in squad. Charlie F, too.

Add to that anxiety related issues for Squire and Iaone, the cupboard was pretty bare. They tried to get Fritzell up to speed but just to early.

@No-Quarter said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@antipodean said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@antipodean said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@antipodean said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@MN5 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@antipodean said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@voodoo said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

I'm almost thankful that we have no games this year, or at most, a couple against the Aussies. Because this team is pretty uninspiring to me. Not for a lack of talent, but for how "messy" it feels. So few guys picking themselves as automatic selections, too many being touted to play out of position, and a new captain that is injury prone and probably not world class even at full fitness.

How can we have gone through another season and still have no idea what our midfield should look like? How is it that we have no natural 12's any more? We are touting Jordie Barret or Ennor (pre-injury) as great options, WTF?

We are still debating who to play at 10, who our best wings are, who to play at 15. We have no standout at 6, even 8 (maybe Sotutu), and arguably our best 7 will need to come off the bench.

And what we absolutely don't have is an cohesiveness in the combinations across the park. Tight 5? Nah. Loosie combination? No. Number 8/9 combo? Nope. Midfield? Maybe of they go back to ALB/Goodhue, but people seem to think this is unlikely. Back 3? Nuh uh.

I could see this team getting toasted by SA if we played them tomorrow.

You said it Homer.

I don't share the negativity.

I'm also trying to ignore the Cane trolling.

Trolling? Why do say that? Is any criticism of him disallowed?

I like Cane, I was amongst those calling for Hansons immediate sacking when he was omitted from the SF team. He hits like a rock, and in that backdrop in particular, he was absolutely necessary.

But in a balanced back row, with a traditional big 6 and a more powerful 8 (say Frizell and Sotutu), I don't think Cane is a world class 7 and I'd rather see Ardie in there.

Hardly trolling

Of course it's trolling. What did Ardie do as an openside in the NvS game apart from watch a number 8 go flying by at a scrum?

Ummmmmm - you accuse me of trolling, I give you a few valid reasons for my opinion, and you come back with a single incident in a single game as some sort of evidence that I am trolling???

That you think they're valid doesn't make them so. I simply can't take anyone seriously who posits that Cane isn't a world class openside flanker.

Well not too many world class guys get left out of their national side for a RWC SF do they? Seriously, where would you rank him internationally as a 7? World class to me means you're one of the first guys to be picked in your national team. Guess we just have different measures of greatness.

Cane being left out of the RWC SF was an absolutely ridiculous decision. It was literally leaving a world class player out of the starting lineup for the most important game. I still shake my head in disbelief at that.

I n 2019 Ardie might have been the most consistent forward we had and he was definitely in much better form than Cane. If you think Cane should have played its basically saying Hansen was correct in his original decision to play without a number 6 which was not completely obvious at the time he first chose the combo. That said I think Cane should have played because the combo had already worked quite effectively but for my reasons above it doesn't change the result.

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

I think half the problem is, up until the start of last year, the ABs thought they were perfectly positioned. And then they got muddled in their thinking, panicked, and left us in a mess. And a few chickens came home to roost as well with regards to developmental processes.

Lost faith in their senior players who fell off a cliff, didn't keep experience on the paddock, had terrible luck with injuries, missed a strong leader, and you get the volatile performances that wind up in a semifinal spanking.

In a world cup year it's a bit much to
change your back 3
constantly shuffle your midfield
change your 10
change your thinking at 6. twice.

In my mind way simpler than that, our three workhorses Rettallick, Whitelock and Read all came up empty. Read probably stuck around 2 years too long, Rettalick underdone and Whitelock nothing left in the tank.

@sparky said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:

Sparky's 23 to take on Whoever:

Moody, Taylor, Laulala, Whitelock, Tuipulotu, Frizell, Cane (c), Sotutu, A. Smith, Mo'unga, C. Clarke, ALB, R. Ioane, Jordan, J. Barrett

Coles, Hodgman, Ofa T, Strange or Grace, A. Savea, TJP, B. Barrett, Goodhue

Nothing really screams Fozzie about this squad, I am still of the opinion he will be very conservative with first match
Moody, Taylor, Laulala, Whitelock, Tuipulotu, Frizell, Cane (c), Savea, A. Smith, Mo'unga, Bridge, ALB, Goodhue, Reece, B. Barrett
Coles, Hodgman, Ofa , Strange. Sotutu, TJP, J. Barrett, R. Iaone

@MajorRage said in Black Lives Matter:

@DMX Fair comment. I don't really subscribe to anything, just keep an eye out on what's going on and being said. I find it's impossible to make a real opinion on something without listening to both sides.

He's obviously not a shoe-in for re-election, my comment (which was meant indirectly) is that the more people carry on like this, then I think the higher chance he has of getting re-elected. I personally think that he will get in, because Biden will completely fall apart in the debates.

Could be wrong though, have been before. I thought Hillary was a shoe-in last time!

Yes you are correct absolutely have to at least hear both sides but defo not happening now here, funny thing about US now is its possible to exist in a silo and be impervious to the views outside. You and me both thought Hilary was a shoe-in last time. Definitely people seem to be way more open about supporting Trump this time around so does that mean no surprises? TBH can't say I am sure about anything..

@MajorRage said in Black Lives Matter:

@Rembrandt

Trump is a shoe-in for re-election.

That depends what Youtube channel you are subscribed too. Guaranteed there are a lot of incredulous videos out there from the opposite end of the spectrum. Really depends on the echo chamber you live in which pretty much sums up the US right now. Polls still show Biden with a sizable lead but its the battleground states that count. Personally I think it will be close and we will not know the results for days/ weeks. Trump is already telling his base he can only lose through fraud so all I know is the next 4 years will not be pretty.

I appreciate responses from some posters that I should continue dialogue and with out sounding like a softie it is difficult. I think I feel a little like Doc Rivers when he said he does not want to talk about this stuff he wants to coach and its true, talking about rugby way more fun.

I'll just go through some points super quick, I am not trying to avoid anything but lots to go through

I have seen plenty of videos like Mikethe Snow posted and it has been very frustrating for many, often the instigators I see are white but I could not venture to say what the exact numbers are by race but fair to say its the instigators are an absolute minority. I also would not write off the influence of right wing instigators, this is absolutely a factor.

I think @Rembrandt said something about 30+ murders since George Floyd, I don't even know what that means, I believe there are at least 45+ murders a day in the US in general. Outside of these protests I also would not discount general social unrest that is fermenting through the growing wealth inequality, lockdown etc, but thats a whole thread in itself.

I would repeat BLM is really about the core statement and actions that can be taken to address that statement. I know some thing that its a "cute" statement but I watch CNBC everyday and its great to see business leaders of all races taking it absolutely seriously. Perhaps that will be the first driver for change. Forget about the supposed BLM leaders or the people who have claimed websites, most people don't even know who they are. Think about the overwhelming number of blacks and majority of whites who support the statement and movement.

Sorry if I am all over the map, but just letting it all out. I saw someone mention that LeBron James said "We are scared", I can confirm , I am petrified for myself and for my family. Guaranteed every black person of all economic classes has least one person close to them who has had a jaw dropping interaction with police. For those who say just comply, that's the point, compliance is no guarantee against safety , humiliation or death, we are not making it up, its just that a fraction of these interactions are now being captured on video. And guess what unarmed people in fear of their lives sometimes act irrationally. I hear so many stories of drunk, mentally ill, or armed white kids having the most "civil" interactions with police, not sure why that same care isn't taken with all American citizens.

What about the stats you ask , ah another old time hit. But blacks are more violent , blacks commit more crime, black-on-black crime? Lets start of with black population 48million people? Enough to say that an attempt to smear the vast majority of that number with US murders and crime falls short in my opinion. And how about a higher percentage convicted than whites? I won't even get into the legal representations or overall legal system but just enough to say it would be much more informative to see the numbers broken down by socio-economic class as well as the actual numbers we are talking about with respect to population. Black-on-black crime? Not much different from white-on-white crime.

Sorry tired now.

Well this has devolved quickly, doesn't take long for charged rhetoric to pretty much put a halt to balanced debate. The Isis and Marxism part came way earlier than I anticipated , not sure I will stick around for the other stuff that usually follows ( or I should say is already following). I was going to spend time countering every point but I see my original points are being ignored anyway and I will probably have the same chance as changing minds or providing perspective as I would on a 4chan board.

@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:

Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?

My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.

If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.

I am wary of getting pulled down twitter/facebook rabbitholes but probably helpful to add some perspective as a person of color is the US. The content of the initial letter is nothing new in the US and many countries that do contain underpriviliged and undersestimated people. I am doubtful that it was written by a black professor but that claim will always give it a bigger push. The core of the argument is familiar, always slightly different, why do light skin blacks perform better than dark skin blacks, why do black women perform better than black men, the same things were heard on plantations, in Southern Africa why do coloreds perform better than African, or elsewhere why are Tutsis better than Hutus, why are Carribean american Blacks better than African-American blacks. The common thread is that many of these differences are minimal but have roots in oppression, and were perpetuated for the benefit a few. There are a long list of ways and reasons that there effects still manifest themselves and many books which cover that ground. Yes particularly in America there is opportunity for everyone, but even successful blacks , Robert Smith, Oprah Winfrey , Lebron James who laud hard work will bring light to the extreme inequality that makes the road very tough for any young person of color. The unequal opportunity starts at kindergarten, continues through school, continues in police interactions, the legal system the list is long. The struggles are not limited to socio-economic status though this is clearly a factor. Very instructive to hear the NBA players, coaches (Doc Rivers, ) GM (Masai Ujiri) opine on their feelings and experiences and one understands the fear , anxiety and frustration to be a black man in America. Particularly Doc Rivers talking about the talk every black family must have with their young sons.

The other notable point was the idea that "Black Lives Matter" is some kind of a political, party composed of anarchists and rioters a narrative that has been effective for Trump and co but a source of frustration for most supporters who are peaceful. At its core I dont think the statement could be clearer and simpler " We matter, our lives matter, see us, help us". On the other side I do love the mobilization and voting efforts initiated by NBA players and others , making voting difficult for black people is something that has happened for years and to make this more accessible and easier can be a game changer. For the record black voters pretty much brought Biden from the brink , so lets see what happens in November.