Coronavirus - Australia
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian hearing more and more people say we should have done the full lockdown like NZ, keeping takeaways and malls etc open for the sake of the economy looks a bit silly if they have to keep extending this version of lockdown
which is stupid. what we did was fantastic. Letting nearly half a million people come back to Australia, most in Vic and Sydney, was the "error". And even then with a better run quarantine...
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian hearing more and more people say we should have done the full lockdown like NZ, keeping takeaways and malls etc open for the sake of the economy looks a bit silly if they have to keep extending this version of lockdown
As long as it is evidence based. In NSW, the vast majority of cases have been acquired in pubs, clubs and restaurants. So if they came out with a full lockdown including shopping malls, golf courses etc. I'd be a bit miffed.
In Victoria it seems most cases are being spread in the home or at work, rather than in cafes and restaurants. So why close them down if you're not actually going to prevent any spread?
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@mariner4life i agree, its more about how to get it back under control and the discussion of whats better in the long run, six weeks of full lockdown or 12 of what we have
@barbarian ...in principle 100%...but people arent smart and so i can see some logic in an approach of "everyones stays home other than the supermaket"...simple to understand, rather than the factual...some stuff is open and some isn't
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life i agree, its more about how to get it back under control and the discussion of whats better in the long run, six weeks of full lockdown or 12 of what we have
what ever you are going to do, do it fast, so you can come on holiday to FNQ
we're all going to get addicted to government money
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian hearing more and more people say we should have done the full lockdown like NZ, keeping takeaways and malls etc open for the sake of the economy looks a bit silly if they have to keep extending this version of lockdown
which is stupid. what we did was fantastic. Letting nearly half a million people come back to Australia, most in Vic and Sydney, was the "error". And even then with a better run quarantine...
Not much choice in the matter when they're Australians.
The simple and obvious issue is only one jurisdiction completely shat the bed on this. Even now Covid-19 related hospitalisations are still only about two per cent of Victoria's public bed capacity.
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@antipodean sorry, maybe i wasn't clear. I have no problem with them coming back. But that's a lot of people, so unless your quarantine is rock solid, there is zero chance you can keep the disease out.
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@mariner4life given “Karen from Brighton” was a white woman and “Eve Black” also a white woman, and the “Bunnings woman”, all got more than their fair share of media air play, I don’t think the media lynch mob really cared about race...
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also, you won't hear that last stat in the media. Like you never hear the ages of the people who died, without digging
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@mariner4life the ages groups of those that died yesterday we like the second bullet point on the article i read
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I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian hearing more and more people say we should have done the full lockdown like NZ, keeping takeaways and malls etc open for the sake of the economy looks a bit silly if they have to keep extending this version of lockdown
which is stupid. what we did was fantastic. Letting nearly half a million people come back to Australia, most in Vic and Sydney, was the "error". And even then with a better run quarantine...
Not much choice in the matter when they're Australians.
The simple and obvious issue is only one jurisdiction completely shat the bed on this. Even now Covid-19 related hospitalisations are still only about two per cent of Victoria's public bed capacity.
I was just about to post on this. I was trying to find out, given the 10k total cases and 5k active ones, how much of VICs ICU capacity is actually being used. It's not easy to determine, but sure it's important in any effort to understand what level of transmission and new cases we can live with
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
also, you won't hear that last stat in the media. Like you never hear the ages of the people who died, without digging
Andrews says the ages of the dead up front in every one of his media conferences.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
also, you won't hear that last stat in the media. Like you never hear the ages of the people who died, without digging
Andrews says the ages of the dead up front in every one of his media conferences.
admission. i don't listen to the press conferences.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
There's a growing body of evidence that while most young people are fine, in some cases it can lead to chronic fatigue, heart problems and other lifelong issues.
The idea that it just hurts oldies and the rest of us are 'fine' is not true at all.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
There’s sensationalist headlines every 5 minutes it seems.
I’ve heard a doctor from Northern Hospital was admitted to ICU last night with COVID. He’s in his 30s.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
There's a growing body of evidence that while most young people are fine, in some cases it can lead to chronic fatigue, heart problems and other lifelong issues.
The idea that it just hurts oldies and the rest of us are 'fine' is not true at all.
Did I say "hurts" or did I say die?
And outliers with comorbidities are going to suffer regardless. Public health policy shouldn't be run by outliers.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
There's a growing body of evidence that while most young people are fine, in some cases it can lead to chronic fatigue, heart problems and other lifelong issues.
The idea that it just hurts oldies and the rest of us are 'fine' is not true at all.
Did I say "hurts" or did I say die?
And outliers with comorbidities are going to suffer regardless. Public health policy shouldn't be run by outliers.
Thanks for the bolding, it really helps make your point. Strong!
Public policy shouldn't be run by outliers, but with a full picture of risks to all ages. Lifelong effects to some affected people (without comorbidities, I might add) is clearly a part of that.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I do wish the media pointed out the obvious - old people in nursing homes are going to die of this if it gets in there. The rest of us are fine. I read some drivel in the ABC with a clickbait headline that "young people are going to die". Not so far they haven't so stop criticising young people from making logical choices - they're fine but the measures we're taking are heavily swayed to the generations that have had the deck loaded for them all their lives.
There's a growing body of evidence that while most young people are fine, in some cases it can lead to chronic fatigue, heart problems and other lifelong issues.
The idea that it just hurts oldies and the rest of us are 'fine' is not true at all.
Did I say "hurts" or did I say die?
And outliers with comorbidities are going to suffer regardless. Public health policy shouldn't be run by outliers.
Thanks for the bolding, it really helps make your point. Strong!
Well since you failed to deal with what I actually said the first time I thought it might help.
Public policy shouldn't be run by outliers, but with a full picture of risks to all ages. Lifelong effects to some affected people (without comorbidities, I might add) is clearly a part of that.
So we're agreed it shouldn't be run by outliers. Great. Now it's a simple discussion about risk benefit. Some old people dying, a few people with complications and millions out of work, hundreds of billions added to public debt, tens of thousands of businesses failing etc.
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@antipodean Why? We've done this before. I fundamentally disagree with the idea we could have avoided the debt and the unemployment.
Do you think the Melbourne lockdown should end?
I genuinely think there's a direct link between consumer confidence and the spread of the virus. If there were no lockdowns and the disease spread, do you really think people would still eat at restaurants, or go on flights, or go to footy games?
Sure a few might, but most wouldn't. They'd go into a kind of self-imposed lockdown. So you'd get the same result, with or without Government action.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean Why? We've done this before. I fundamentally disagree with the idea we could have avoided the debt and the unemployment.
Yet again you make it a binary issue; "either or". It's not.
What the policy response has shown is that the first round of restrictions in Victoria didn't achieve their stated aim if they have to do it again, let alone apply a harsher regime the second time. If you bought time to add health care capacity, why is it necessary now?
Why is it necessary to impact people in such a manner when they bear almost no risk? For a relatively small pandemic by historical standards; first recorded case on Australia Day and we've added 188 deaths as of yesterday since the first recorded at the beginning of March. Meanwhile creating the deepest economic recession since the 1930s.
Restaurants and cafes, etc. could have stayed open catering to the customers that still wanted to frequent them, obeying social distancing. That alone negates the hypothesis that the same result would've been realised.